"Icon veneration" — Dispute (interview) the Orthodox Christian with Baptists

The following persons participated in the dispute:

On the Orthodox side: Priest Evgeny Veselov, Alan Bedoev (speaker) and others.

On the part of Baptists: religious scholar Dmitry Furtsev (Yaroslavl; speaker), pastor Sergey Antonovich Didovets and others.

* Minimal literary editing of the text was carried out for ease of reading.

Report of the Orthodox (Alan Bedoev)

For the majority of Protestants, the veneration of holy icons is one of the most painful and unbearable topics in relation to the doctrines of the Orthodox Church. And even in our previous meetings, even if only briefly, people always touched on this topic.

So initially I would like to express my gratitude that you agreed to discuss this topic with us, because it is really very, very important.

Thus, the Orthodox doctrine of the veneration of sacred objects as a whole is based on the understanding that matter as such has the ability to both be sanctified and equally defiled. In other words, it can receive, preserve, and transmit the uncreated divine grace of the Holy Spirit.

WhenIf God created the heavens and the earth, then it was all full of grace, there is no doubt about it, saturated with divine light, and a person, being on such a land, he was in joy and complete peace. But, once upon a time, man sinned and fell away from God, and thereby defiled the earth, brought a curse on it.

Written: "Cursed is the earth for your sake" (Genesis 3:17), the book of Genesis tells us. The earth began to grow weeds – "thorns, thistles, it will grow for you," this wonderful book tells us. There were diseases, death, earthquakes, floods, dangerous animals and similar troubles.

And every day, to this day, man defiles the earth with his sins, and these natural disasters, we see that they increase from year to year. According toAccording to the Holy Scriptures, incredible natural phenomena will occur during the reign of the antichrist, since it is during this time that a person will sin in a special violent way. This is discussed in detail in Revelation chapters 6 and 16.

You will remember that God Himself warned the Israelites that if they kept his commandments, God would bless them, and in particular, that the land would bear fruit abundantly. And if they turn away from It, then some misfortunes will happen to them, including natural ones. It is described in detail in the book of Deuteronomy, chapter 11, from verse 13 to 18, you can say, I literally quote.

This clearly implies that the spiritual state of a person directly affects the surrounding matter, which, because of his holy life, is either blessed and sanctified, or because of his sins, is defiled and cursed.

This is exactly how God created matter, which is capable of receiving and transmitting divine grace or damnation. This is a spiritual law.

If a person lives a holy life, then his spirit is sanctified and filled with the grace of God; by his spirit the soul is sanctified, and by the soul the body. What is important here is that the body can also be holy. As it is written," The God of peace himself will sanctify you completely, and your whole spirit, soul, and body may be preserved without blemish at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ " (1 Thess. 5: 23).

It is also written: "Your bodies are members of Christ,", " your bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit who lives you " (1 Corinthians 6: 15, 19).

The body of a holy person already sanctifies his clothes, the ground on which he walked, vessels, for example, things with which he came into contact. And the more holy and filled with the Holy Spirit a person is, the more he sanctifies the matter around him.

By virtue of the operation of this law, it is possible to receive the grace of God, often miraculous, through those material objects (for example, clothing) with which the holy person came into contact.

Thus, we know from the Gospel that a woman who had been suffering from a serious illness for twelve years touched the hem of Christ's robe and was instantly healed (Mt. 9: 20-21; Mk. 5:25-29; Lk. 8:43–44). The question here is, what healed this woman? Some kind of matter, by itself? No, the grace of God that was on this garment and, in fact, that this garment exuded. Elisha once stopped the river with the cloak of the holy prophet Elijah (4 Samuel 2: 14). The sick and possessed were healed by placing handkerchiefs and aprons from Paul's body on them (Acts 1: 4). 19:12).

And again the question: were there any miraculous handkerchiefs or what? No, it was the grace of God that worked through the material, material sanctity.

The same thing is happening now. Thousands, tens of thousands of all kinds of healings, miracles through the shrines revered by the church. What a long way to go, take even our miraculous Theodore icon of the Mother of God. A huge number of certificates, there is even a whole site where people throw off certificates. A huge number, a huge block, people come from all over Russia and get cured of cancer. Some people can't have children for decades, so they come and put their hands on this icon with prayer and reverence and receive healing, become happy parents, and so on.

Here, for example, from the last thing I read. A woman, she had a tumor, she traveled almost all over Russia, the doctors simply could not help. The disease did not respond to any treatment, chemotherapy. And when she heard in Moscow that there was such a miraculous icon, she came with pilgrims, kissed the icon with prayer and reverence, and was miraculously healed. She describes it on the website, it is open, and she is now testifying to everyone she can, writing thank-you letters, thanking God. And there are really a lot of such stories.

Another way of consecrating material objects is through various Theophanies or, in Russian, Epiphanies. We know from the Holy Scriptures that when God manifested Himself in a visible way, the matter where this happened was sanctified. And here-attention-God demanded the proper veneration of such matter. A vivid example is the story of Moses. When God appeared to him in the burning bush, Moses heard the following words:: "Moses, take off your shoes, for the place where you stand is holy ground" (Exodus 3:5).

From the point of view of an ordinary Protestant, Baptist, well, sand, it is sand, that there are shoes to take off. But no, we see that God is very categorical in this regard and directly demands from His servant a reverent attitude towards the earth, towards the material sanctuary that God has sanctified. Not only God, but it happened that when angels appeared to people, matter was also sanctified.

When the leader of the Lord's army appeared to Joshua, he, Joshua, heard the same words: "Take off your shoes from your feet, for the place where you stand is holy" (Nab 5:13-15). These places were sanctified because they were in contact with a real manifestation of God or His Angels. Which once again speaks about the reality of the law, according to which matter is able to perceive Divine grace upon itself.

Such material: earth, clothing, vessels, etc., which came into contact with God, Angels, or holy people, is called sacred in the Church, which God obliges to honor properly.

And the Word of God is literally overflowing with such examples. Everyone probably knows the story of Uzzah, who defiantly touched the Ark of the Covenant, which he had no right to touch (2 Samuel 6: 6-7). It seems to be material, the product of human hands, but God took this boldness as a personal disrespect for Himself. And as a result, it was the last day of this man's life. God put him to death.

It's not a minor thing. God took the life of a man for disrespecting the shrine. This is what the Word of God tells us. We also know that everything that is consecrated to God is sacred. The tabernacle was sacred because it was a place of worship. The temple in Jerusalem was sacred. David is said to have been "a man after the heart of God "(1 Sam.13: 14; Acts II.13:22). But he paid systematic homage to the temple in Jerusalem. As the Psalm says ," But I will enter into your house according to the multitude of your lovingkindness; I will worship in your holy temple" (Psalm 5:8).

Let's go further. All temple and priestly objects were sacred objects. Exodus, chapter 30, verses 26-29: "and thou shalt anoint with it the tabernacle of the congregation, and the ark of the testimony, and the table, and all its vessels, and the lampstand, and all its vessels, and the altar of incense, and the altar of burnt offering, and all its vessels, and the laver, and its base; and thou shalt sanctify them. attention) and it will be most holy; everything that touches them will be sanctified"(Exodus 30: 26-29). Once again, we are making sure of the spiritual law about the ability of matter to be a vehicle of Divine grace.

The Ark of the Covenant was a special shrine before which Joshua fell on his face to the ground (Nab. 7: 6). I lay there for hours. In general, when discussing this topic, it is important to point out our dear Baptist friends themselves. Most of them, of course, deny the veneration of shrines, but in fact they are real worshippers of them.

Well, here is a living example of such a banal one. Now, if a person comes to your meeting in rainy weather and hangs his umbrella on the cross that you have on the ground floor, then probably only the laziest person will not reproach him for blasphemous behavior. Or now one of us, concerned about the satiety of our neighbor, will take out of his bag a fat herring, wrapped instead of a newspaper in texts fromRead the Holy Scriptures, and offer us something to eat. Well, such a person will probably suffer very much, at least from such threatening looks.

Or if now a brother takes the Word of God and puts it under the table as a prop to make it comfortable to sit. The same thing – probably every one of our Baptist friends will reprimand him. That is, there is a veneration of shrines and Baptists. Here it is important to note that the veneration does not go directly to God, but to the material shrine. More precisely, the veneration goes to God through a material shrine. And how can you call Joshua and Moses idolaters, because they worshipped and honored the temple and the Ark of God? Doesn't this mean that by worshiping the temple, these people were actually worshiping God Himself?

In the same way, the Orthodox, honoring the Gospel, honoring the holy things, honoring the temple of God, thereby honoring the Lord Himself. This is one of the ways to honor God.

Let's go further. Let's move on to the topic of icon veneration. Here we must immediately say that there is such a thesis that icons were invented somewhere in the fifth century, that initially the Apostolic Church did not know them. Well, of course, this thesis is false. Icons have always been in the Church, since the first century. Even in the catacombs where the first Christians gathered (it was the Neronian period, the first century, the sixties), many images of the Apostle Peter, the Mother of God, and Christ are found.

And in order not to be unfounded, there is such a most authoritative Baptist figure, Sergey Sannikov, Doctor of theology. He is considered simply the highest authority. He has a book called Twenty Centuries of Christianity. In this book, this Baptist figure himself cites a huge number of various ancient images. Particularly noteworthy is the image of Christ found near the Sea of Galilee. This is the latest find. Swiss and English scholars undoubtedly date it to the first century. This is modern Turkey, near Chalcedon, found in the catacombs where the first Christians were. This image dates from the first century.

Baptist: Is this from the catacomb church?

Orthodox (speaker): Yes, it's in the catacombs where the Christians were under the Emperor Nero.

This is the third century. Various frescoes that were found in the Roman catacombs during the persecution of Christians. This is what the places where the first Christians served the Lord looked like.

We see that here the images are a fragment from the Gospel, for example, the Good Shepherd. The second century. We see the lamb on its neck. In general, this is all in the public domain. Anyone who wants to, I can even throw out a link, including to your Baptist figure.

The icon in the church is about secular science. It was found by archaeologists and so on. This is also confirmed by the voice of the Church. The ancient fathers and teachers of the Church point out to us that in Christian churches of their time, and in earlier times, there were icons, and explain their purpose.

For example, the second century. Clement of Alexandria says of a Christian that " when he fixes his gaze on the image, he directs his thoughts to the many patriarchs who have reached perfection before him, to the many prophets, to the angels, and to the Lord himself, who teaches us all that we also can have eternal life, according to these lofty images."

The second century. Minucius, Felix, Tertullian andOrigen describes that the pagans always reproached the ancient Christians for worshipping the cross of the Lord, which gives us an understanding that the first Christians honored the Crucifixion of the Lord.

The third century. Methodius of Patara writes: "We make icons of Angels, that is, of God, the Beginning and Powers, made of gold, in honor and glory of Him."

St. Basil the Great, who is already in the fourth century, writes: "I accept from among the holy apostles, prophets, and martyrs, and I call for intercession before God, so that through them, that is, through their intercession, the God who loves mankind may have mercy on me and grant me remission of my sins. This is why I also honor and worship the signs of their icons, especially since they were handed down by the holy apostles and are not forbidden, but are depicted in all our churches."

Of course, until the fourth century, icon painting was not so widespread for a certain reason, because of severe persecution, but by the fourth century icons were absolutely ubiquitous. And we see here that Basil the Great does not say that the icons were created in his time, but rather that we adopted this tradition from the apostles themselves.

Now, as for the act of veneration itself. It is known that the Holy Scriptures really forbid worshipping idols and other visible likenesses of created beings, that is, taking them for gods. But, of course, this is true, but this does not apply to the true worship of God, Angels and saints, which, in fact, are directed not at soulless matter, but at the object of the image itself.

It is important here that the definition of the 7th Ecumenical Council tells us that the honor, prayer, address, and praise given to an image, that is, an icon, goes back to the archetype, that is, to the one who is depicted on this icon. That is, in other words, an Orthodox person does not pray, does not praise a piece of wood with paints, but the person who is depicted on this icon, who is undoubtedly alive and with God, and whom the church has glorified as a saint.

And just as it often happens that we kiss the image and thereby show love for it, so Orthodox Christians, by burning incense in front of the icon, praying, and kissing, thereby show love for the archetype.

It is also necessary to point out the very concept of veneration and worship in the Orthodox faith. The fact is that not all worship is identical. And the same Seventh Ecumenical Council clearly delineated what is venerable worship, as we, for example, honor, even when we greet each other, we sometimes bow our heads. Jacob, for example, is written to have fallen seven times before Esau. We revere the holy things, we revere the Gospel. This is a reverential worship, which in Greek is called "proskinese". And there is a divine worship, "latriynoe". Such worship we give only to God and Him alone.

And here (attention!) Orthodox teaching defines that the Orthodox venerate the icon exclusively by venerating it, not by divine worship. That is, we honor icons, but do not pray to them as gods, but simply honor them as some kind of shrine.

Let's go further. The purpose of icons in the church.

The first thesis is that the icon helps us rekindle our love for God and His saints. I remember how one of my former Pentecostal colleagues really seriously reproached me for the icon-veneration that there is a living oneGod, and you cheat on Him with a piece of wood, why do you honor the products of human hands, when there is a Lord, this, relatively speaking, offends His feelings.

But let's take a concrete example to see if this is the case. Many men, a banal example that is usually given, I will tell you that men often carry photos of their wives or brides with them. And imagine that the wife of such a person, after seeing her photo, her image with her husband, will start to be offended and scold him for cheating on her alive, with a soulless image made of paper and paint.

This is absolutely absurd, because anyone will understand that it was the love for his wife that prompted this person to take a photo of her, wear it, so that they can look at her more often, so that they can really kiss her at the moments when he is going somewhere on a business trip, and so on.

The wife will not only not accuse him of cheating on her with a soulless object, but on the contrary will be happy that her husband loves her so much that he made this image. We see that the very reverence for a photo of a loved one, of course, is not treason, but, on the contrary, shows love, as I said earlier.

The second thesis is that the icon is needed for preaching. The same Ecumenical Council declared that the icons were consistent with the narrative of the gospel sermon.

The icon really is the Gospel in colors. After all, it often depicts many gospel fragments – the Incarnation of God, Baptism, Resurrection, Peter's walk on the waters, the gospel commandments are depicted, which were realized in the lives of saints. And the power of such a sermon can sometimes be very powerful, because a person often perceives through images much better than through words. There is a Russian saying that " it is better to see once than to hear a hundred times." It is mundane, but in this case it can be applied.

We also know from history that many saints were converted to Christianity in this way. Mary of Egypt, for example, is now a very great saint, formerly a harlot. She converted to Christianity when she saw the image of the Most Holy Theotokos. It was Her purity, Her greatness, that turned her mind, and she became a Christian.

Even our Russian Prince Vladimir, he finally decided to convert to Orthodoxy after being shown an icon of the Last Judgment by Greek Byzantine missionaries. That is, it really is the preaching of the Gospel.

Let's move on. The third aspect. We need icons to arouse a person's religious feelings and remind them of God. The same Seventh Ecumenical Council pointed out this purpose of icons, saying that: "as often as they are seen through the images on icons, just as often those who look at them are forced to remember and love those who are like them."

In an Orthodox church, everything reminds us of God. Everywhere there are gospel stories, people who, I repeat, fulfilled the Gospel with their lives. And in such a place, it is really very, very easy to pray.

You can say, of course, that I don't need props, I always have Jesus with me, but we know that a person is a two-part being, and sometimes he also perceives faith through his bodily feelings. Unfortunately, there is no escape from this.

Fourth: We also need icons to fulfill the commandments: "Remember your teachers who preached the Word of God to you, and when you see the end of their lives, imitate their faith" (Hebrews 13:7). And through icons, the church really remembers its mentors, pastors, teachers, confessors of faith, ascetics of piety, who shone in it throughout history. And again, he tries to imitate their lives.

And the fifth: We need icons for the consecration of churches and homes. As I have said, an icon is a shrine that exerts its sanctifying effect, thanks to the saint depicted on it and the prayer with which the priest consecrates it.

Therefore, it seems to us, and we know ("it seems to me" is a bad word), we see that icon worship has a direct basis in the Word of God, it is not idolatry, and it is not a betrayal of Jesus Christ, but on the contrary, it is a confirmation of our love for God. Well, I'd like to leave it at that for now. Thank you.

Baptist Pastor: Thank you. Let's go straight to the report from our side.

Orthodox: Yes.

Baptist PastorThen there will be questions. I write everything down for myself, yes, there are a lot of questions.

Baptist's report (Dmitry Furtsev)

I also have historical facts here, and I think that the sources that are also available in the Catholic Church are no less, I think that there are many more different historical and other arguments there.

Well, I'll start with the fact that, as in any normal church, there is a catechism. That is, the doctrine of the faith, all of you passed, maybe someone as a catechist. We have the second commandment in our faith, and I think we understand the purpose of the commandments in general in the same way, because the Lord tells us through His word that He calls living according to the commandments holiness and righteousness.

Here. The second commandment says that you all know it perfectly well, but I do not mean to reproach you with anything, but to make the Word sound. Maybe, brothers, someone will be ready too, so that I don't have to go all over the Bible, you'll be ready to say the place that I'm going to say.

So, for the time being, I have here the book of Exodus, chapter 20, the well-known Decalogue, the Decalogue given to Moses through the ministry of Angels by the Lord himself on Mount Sinai.

"You shall not make for yourself any graven image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above, or what is on the earth below, or what is in the water below the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them, for I am the Lord your God. God is a jealous God, punishing the children for the iniquity of their fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, and showing mercy to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments."

We see that here the direct principle of monotheism, that is, the belief in one God ("mono" – one, "Theos" – God) is expressed with the utmost clarity and precision.

The prohibition of idols is, of course, not the prohibition of sculptures, statues, images in general, but against the production of images for worship. I wanted to separate the two terms – reverence and worship.

Of course, taking out photos, seeing your favorite people… When the battalion commander sent me his photo from the army, I even kissed him, although now it seems not accepted, but I was so happy to see him, after... this year will be 35 years of withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan… That I even kissed his image. It does not mean that I turned to him there and said: "Servant of God Alexander, how are you fighting there? That's where four drones flew in, " or something like that. No.

So no one is against the image. All our religious literature shows that Evangelical Christians-Baptists do not consider fine art in the religious sphere unacceptable. We are aware that fine art has been used for decorative purposes since the Old Testament and in the construction of the temple in Jerusalem (3 Samuel 6: 29-35). We believe that it is acceptable to use images of the Cross as a symbol of our redemption in houses of worship, and that it is possible to use illustrations of the Bible in Christian literature, otherwise we should throw out all our children's bibles, which are so full.

However, we consider it absolutely unacceptable for us to use intermediary objects directly when communicating with God in personal prayer and public worship.

We believe that the Bible prohibits not only direct deification of any objects, but also any prayerful veneration of images.

The book of Exodus, as we have already read, and let us touch on one more place, brethren, you can read, that we will have Deuteronomy, the 4th chapter, verse 15 to 19, there is a warning against idolatry. Anyone who wishes, please have the floor while I move on to my next thought.

"Hold fast in your souls that you have not seen any image. On the Day when the Lord spoke to you on the Mountain Horeb out of the midst of the fire, so that you do not corrupt yourselves and make for yourselves graven images, images of any idol representing a man or a woman, images of any cattle that are on the earth, images of any winged bird that flies under the heavens, images of any (reptile) crawling on the earth, images of any fish that is in the waters below the earth..."

Enough, I think, everyone already understood. Of course, in the historical context, who really studied biblical exegesis, what the author wanted to say to historical readers, first of all, this all applies to the gods, or rather, to the false gods of the surrounding peoples. Because we know that all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God, that eternal life in Christ. And the fact that the Lord had to call Abraham, to create a certain people, so that our LordJesus Christ could have come in the flesh, but He could not have come among the people who had some kind of demonic worship, because behind any cult, false religion, there are demonic forces. And, of course, the Savior, the Messiah, Yeshua, and Isa-al-Masih could not have come among such a people.

It is important to note that the word of the New Testament clearly states that Christ is the believer's only intermediary in His relationship with God. First Epistle to Timothy from the Saint, Pastoral Epistles, chapter 2, verse 5.

Baptist (from the audience): "For he is oneБогThere is one God and mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2: 5).

Baptist (speaker): Thank you very much. Therefore, there is no need for an intermediary image. I will tell you that even I am ready to kiss any saint, but not to pray to him. Of course, we also have different cases. "Imitate me as I am Christ" is not a call to pray to him and not to Christ.

He says, " imitate me as I am Christ." Here. Well, we have for the common people (I can then throw you a video from five years ago, which I did for new and generally non-church people). There are simple questions:

Here's the question: Icon worship is not idolatry. Why do you strongly oppose icon worship? This is written for a wide range of readers: "Baptists Answer" is the catechism department of the Russian EXB Union.

What our Doctor of theology says: "First, the veneration of icons in folk religion...

(After all, not everyone is familiar with the works thereSt. John of Damascus. Now we will get to it, they have read and know who the universal teachers are. At best, the lives were readSt. Basil the Great, St. John Chrysostom, St. Gregory the New Theologian).

"...the veneration of icons in folk religion often has the character of unconscious idolatry. They do not have such high theological thought that this applies to the archetype. They take it literally. Which is sad, of course, when people practice worshiping material objects without knowing the true God."

Comment. The authors of the quotation deviate from the original thesis. If some people worship icons incorrectly, this is not taught by the Orthodox Church. After all, some even interpret the Bible heretically or use it, for example, for divination. But that's not a reason to give up the Bible, is it? ЦерковьThrough icons, the Church commands the faithful to remember God and His saints as often as possible, in order to strengthen themselves in prayer and imitate their Christian life by following their example. What's wrong with that?

Friends, I'm still a historian by training. My course work "Spiritual component on the Kulikovo field". My mentor was Abbot Boris. A man with I don't know how many higher education degrees in Moscow, who edited me. And I believe that the common people, as in the time of Christ, need some kind of material shrine, for their consciousness, for their consciousness. But most of all, of course, these are more like exceptional cases. Because there is a spiritual law that the Apostle Paul tells his disciple in his Pastoral Epistle that " all things are sanctified by the Word of God and prayer "(1 Timothy 4: 5).

We have just called upon the angels for a meal, sanctified our meal and our communion with prayer. Everything is sanctified by the Word of God and prayer. It does not mean that it has become God. Of course, a certain kind of gracious energy definitely comes out. And even scientists measure the soul by some physical parameters. And they say that when a person prays, certain impulses, frequencies, emanate from him, which have a beneficial effect both on himself and on others.

This is even further away, I think that in the Kingdom of Heaven we will see a lot of things. What is hidden from us now. However, so – " has in practice the character of worshipping material objects, without having an idea of the true God."

I am very glad that the Russian Orthodox Church now has many Sunday schools, and, moreover, for adults. Because the people, they are actually baptized, but often not enlightened. Again, I'm very happy. And I was offered to be a catechist in any deanery of the Yaroslavl Metropolitan Area. Even I was told, brother, we bless you, a thousand rubles for your two or three lessons. You can offer a voluntary donation. Why? Because in fact, people need to explain the spiritual component of our faith, God, that God is a Spiritual Being. No one has ever seen It, as we read in the Gospel of John in chapter 4. And we also read that Jesus Christ made God visible to us. One of the first heresies, the Docetes, what did they do?

Here we are all reading the first epistle of the Council from John. That there only see that about love. God is love. However, it was caused by serious problems in the early church. And appearing, raising their heads, dragging many disciples with them, confusing them with Gnostic teachings, because they said that Christ came in an apparent body.

This is why the Apostle John writes in chapter 4 of his first epistle to the Council: "Know the Spirit of God (and the spirit of error) in this way:every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God, but it is the spirit of Antichrist" (1 John 4: 2).

We think it must have happened somewhere once. Dear friends, I have read the first epistle of the Council from John. And then I came across those people, the bearers of this ancient heresy. That Christ came as if in a seeming body, like a ghost.

Orthodox priest: I'm sorry, but is it possible to get closer to the topic?

Baptist (speaker): Good... Second, God does not favor unauthorized service. That is, well, there is no such as a call to us, so as to honor, and even more so to worship spiritually... And there was no such practice in the practice of either Christ or the apostles, there was no such practice [i.e., the practice of venerating icons-ed.].…As I said, these Scriptures...

Comment: The practice of Christ and the apostles lacked much of what Baptists and other evangelicals now have. They had no songs to show on the big screen, no glorification groups, religious dances and hand-clapping, they were dressed differently, they did not build their sermondifferently, they did not know the principle of "Scripture only" and in addition to faith, they were required to fulfill the gospel commandments for salvation. It is clear that external forms of religious worship have evolved over time, and this is a natural process. The worship of the time of King Solomon differs significantly from the worship of the time of the prophet Moses. In what place of Scripture is it necessary to glorify God only and exclusively in the forms prescribed in the Scripture itself? This is a far-fetched demand that Baptists themselves do not follow.

We had the second topic... Well, if you finish this a little bit, because there were historical references. Therefore, the main doctrines, disputes and heresies we have from the sixth to the eighth century. There was an iconoclastic movement. More even accused not that ... there were no Protestants yet. Muslims blamed. They are also a monotheistic religion. Although it is false, it does not recognize... The Eastern Church was accused of idolatry. They say that they worship drawings, statues, and portraits in the church. Iconoclasts opposed the use of any images. Emperor Leo III issued a decree in 730 prohibiting the use of icons in the Eastern Church. The reason was that icons led to idolatry, which the Bible condemns.

The monks violently opposed the decree. Under Pope Gregory II, the Western Church encouraged the use of icons. And the successor, Gregory III... and the successor excommunicated all those who had ever removed from the church and destroyed or damaged even one image of Christ, the Virgin Mary or the saints. Emperor Charlemagne also encouraged the decoration of churches with images, but strongly opposed the worship of these images. Until the Empress Theodora ordered the icons to be returned to the church and the iconoclasts to be persecuted.

Iconoclasts suggested replacing artistic images with a Cross or a Bible, considering them to be the only acceptable icons in quotation marks.

The theological justification of the position of icon-worshippers was given in the works ofSt. John of Damascus, a Palestinian monk, as you have already heard, at the seventh Ecumenical Council. Since he was one of the last, as some believe, church fathers, a great theologian, he put forward the following theological arguments: icons are just an imitation, a copy of the original, or a reminder of the original. Christ was an icon of God the Father, Colossians 1: 15, that is, an image. It would be wrong to worship icons, but they serve, along with the Bible and the cross, to teach and remind us of God.

It was accepted with this interpretation. In theory, this theological position is not objectionable to Protestant churches. But in practice, it led to the development of idolatry and led to violations of Scripture. Only one God deserves to be worshipped, and the decision of the Council of Nicaea in 787 was unsuccessful and gave rise to the worship of images and relics, which were most developed in the Western Church.

We will now say a few words about the veneration of the relics, here. Relics and relics. The Scriptures, Psalm 113: 25: "Neither the dead will praise the Lord, nor all who go down to the grave,"that is, it is not the dead who praise God.

And David also prayed, "Who will praise you in the grave," who will praise you. See also Acts, Chapter 8, verse 2. "Stephen was buried by reverent men." That's how everyone is gathered here, and I want to think we're all reverent men. "And they made a great lamentation for him." And you remember Moses, they said that no one should even find him, so as not to make an idol out of him for worship. And Moses was such a difficult man. Remember these poems. Josephus describes that his face became radiant, that even other nations joined in. That's when the first proselytes went, looking at the face of Moses coming out after communion with God. Christ also speaks in Matthew 23: 27 "concerning the uncleanness of human remains."

Comment: Addressing the Jews, the Lord speaks about the ritual impurity of the Old Testament, comparing it with the internal sinful impurity of the Pharisees. However, in the New Testament, the attitude to ritual by-law uncleanness is different: "I know and am sure of the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean in himself; only to him who considers anything unclean, it is unclean" (Rom. 14: 14). And again: "To the pure all things are pure; but to the defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure, but both their mind and conscience are defiled" (Titus 1:15). It's even strange that the Baptist doesn't know these quotes.

Nowhere in the New Testament do we find the idea that the remains of prominent or saintly Christians could have been blessed. It is not prescribed to expect blessing from objects in any way related to the deceased righteous.

Of course, it is impossible to pass a special place in the history of the bible, when the body of a dead person, whom they wanted to bury, and there all the people then fell into idolatry. And when the enemy came against them, they did not observe the tradition, they threw him, you can say, dropped him into the first crypt that came to hand, this is 4 Sam.13: 21, where his body came into contact with the bones of the prophet Elisha, and he revived.

Of all the comments, I liked the ones edited by Platon Kharchlaa, he is not Orthodox, but he collected the best comments, he did not interpret everything himself, he was just a collector. That it was a miracle, so that even from the grave, Israel could remember the prophet and what he admonished them about. And he exhorted them to turn to God, to repent.

Comment: Of course, our speaker liked Baptist Harchlaa. But the point here is not in an allegorical or figurative interpretation of this event, but in a simple fact. In fact, the dead man was brought to life by contact with the bones of the prophet, that is, the Lord chose the bones of the prophet as an object for His glorification. If God's purpose had been different, there would have been a prophet who would have explained this event to the Jews in a Baptist way. But no, the Lord did not want to humiliate the prophet Elisha in such a way, unlike the Baptists.

Friends, I'm just finishing up, I'm sorry. Of course, in the book of Acts of the holy Apostles, as we have already heard, the sick were healed with handkerchiefs, aprons from the body of the apostle Paul, this is the book of Acts, Chapter 19, verse 11: 12. As in the case of the bones of Elisha, we are dealing here with a description of a unique situation for the confirmation of the Gospel. God did and still does, because "He is the same yesterday and today and forever "(Hebrews 13: 8).

Comment: That's right. If this is what God did in the days of the apostles, it means that He wants to act in the same way now. It appears that the Baptist knows the teaching of Scripture, but is unwilling to accept it in its entirety.

It does, but that doesn't mean it's a general practice. Neither in the book of Acts nor in the epistles of the Apostle Paul do we ever again encounter a situation where the power of God worked indirectly through material objects.

Comment: Many things in Scripture are mentioned only once, such as the Sunday service (Acts 1: 16). 20: 7) or the formula of baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28: 19). But surely this is not a reason for Baptists to cancel Sunday worship meetings or baptize not in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? As you can see, the speaker again offers double standards: some (broad) - for himself, others (narrow) - for the Orthodox.

The New Testament, describing the death of the first disciple Stephen, mentions that his remains, as we have already said, were buried, that is, laid in the grave, like the bodies of all people.

So, there is no such reason in the Bible for the cult of relics or the cult of relics. There is reverence, respect, but even David, Psalm 16, verse 15, with spiritual eyes beheld the image of God. I also like objects dedicated to God, and of course we should surround ourselves with such objects, but not deify them. This is because the oldest deviation from God, animism, is the deification of inanimate objects. This is one of the oldest archaic religions. Well, I think that's enough, right, Father Eugene?

You know, even the students stood up for me, although all the Orthodox people were around – let him say his "private theological opinion".

Discussion of reports

Orthodox priest: I am glad that we have a common terminology. That makes things a bit easier, of course.

Baptist (speaker): Yes, because I listened to a little bit of feedback from the previous discussion and explained to the pastor a little bit that you're just saying the same thing, but you're both wrong.

Laughter.

Orthodox priest: It's a pity that you weren't here earlier, otherwise the three of us would have been wrong.

Baptist (speaker): No, you don't understand, that is, you are talking about the same thing, but in slightly different words.

Orthodox priest: Now we are talking about significantly different things, no doubt.

Baptist (speaker): Well yeah

Orthodox priest: So, well, since we have finished both reports, I would like to clarify this one in our memory for the time being, warm, hot, I would even say. Dmitry, you started with the second commandment, the Law of Moses. I understand you correctly that these ten commandments are literally fulfilled at all times, and if it is written that you should not make an idol or any image, then we understand this and so on, literally perfectly.

Baptist (speaker): Well, I've already read, if you were paying attention, that we don't mind creating some...

Orthodox priest: No,no, that's not the question. It is about whether I understand correctly that all the ten commandments are literally written, that they are literally fulfilled...

Baptist (speaker): No, they... there is something literally, but they have all been transformed through the teaching of Jesus Christ.

Orthodox: Great, I'm glad you understand this, otherwise I asked you about the fourth commandment. It's good that you understand this. But then the question is, since we understand all these commandments in the light of Christ's teaching,

Baptist (speaker): Yes.

Orthodox priest: Even, I would say, not in the teaching of Christ, but in the light of Christ himself, so it will be even better. In particular, in the light of the event of the Incarnation and the appearance of the Church. Do you agree with this?

Baptist (speaker): Please repeat it again.

Orthodox priest: We understand these ten and other Old Testament commandments in the light of Christ's teaching, or rather, in the light of Christ himself, the Person of Christ. Events of the Incarnation of God and the birth of the Church.

Baptist (speaker): Well, about the rest, they lost their own, because there was a new institute, a Church The Lord Jesus Christ, and he is the moral law for all time. The only thing is that there is a broader understanding, even if according to Archpriest Pavel Slobodsky, the" Law of God " of the Church abroad, for example, the veneration of parents applies not only to parents, but also in the church it is to priests-leaders, in the hospital-to doctors, in the army – to commanders.

Orthodox priest: No, this is not relevant, I am asking something else here, we are not here to find out the theological nuances, interpretations, in fact, what interests me… The second commandment, you know, it doesn't sound like this by accident, but because you quoted Deuteronomy 4: 15-19 to us, "Keep it in your hearts that you did not see any image on the day that the Lord spoke there on Mount Horeb in the midst of the fire," and so on. This is very accurate, so the reason for the second commandment is that the Jews did not see any image, but we Christians saw the image of Christ, so why can't we portray Him as the Son of God, which hinders us?

Baptist (speaker): I think that it is possible to portray something, but you understand that in China Christ is drawn narrow-eyed, in Africa dark-skinned, and the Gospel does not describe a single physical parameter, nor the color of the eyes, hair, height, weight, none of this is present. That is, God wanted to pay attention to something else, to His more spiritual and moral side, to His teaching.

Orthodox priest: Well, as for China, Japan, and so on, you'll agree if... I've never seen a Chinese icon of Christ. But if you give me a Chinese icon of Christ right now, I'm sure that I can distinguish this icon from, say, your photo or a portrait of you, or some other person. Even, undoubtedly. Why? Because an icon is a symbolic image, and it is not just an image, but we see that there is an inscription, as you know, the inscription shows us the spiritual essence, without an inscription, in fact, there is no icon.

Baptist (speaker): Yes, the icon loses its canonicity.

Orthodox priest: Yes, you understand that. And specifically, Christ, in addition, has a cross-shaped halo. Personally, with Him and no one else. In this halo are inscribed 9 stripes, the Lord of the nine orders of Angels. That is, our icon is deeply symbolic and shows us theology in colors.

What you say that some people don't understand, well, listen, some people don't understand a lot of things. It is necessary to teach what the Church does. Thus, whether He is narrow-eyed, not narrow-eyed, the question is not what this artist depicted by the strength of his skill, but what this icon of Christ is, and this is obvious, so this argument is completely irrelevant. But as for the Reincarnation, I didn't hear your answer here.

Baptist (speaker): What didn't you hear?

Orthodox priest: If Christ became incarnate, the Son became incarnate, then the argument from Deuteronomy 4: 15-19 is removed. You haven't seen any image, so you can't portray it. We have seen the image of Christ, and we are portraying Him. And we pay Him homage, which refers, as Alan said, not to the image itself, in fact, but to the Prototype. No one ever honors the icon as the Creator of Heaven and Earth.

Baptist (speaker): I agree with you, I agree, but listen to me. Of the four or more adaptations of the gospel events, I was most impressed by the film "Judgment on the Gospel of Luke", after the discovery of the Qumran manuscripts, which is the closest to historical details.

I take it so literally. And those ordinary people in the villages, and not only in the cities, who watched and showed, I was told, that's how we imagined It. And literally this image, maybe, arose in the head. But there were also films "The Gospel of Mark", "The Gospel of John", "The Gospel of Matthew". Everywhere there are positive and good features, because there is the God-inspired Word of God, which carries the very nature and personality of Christ and God Himself and the Holy Spirit. And it was very difficult for me to get rid of the image of the actor of the English Shakespeare Theater, which I did not imagine in my imagination... So don't create any image for yourself...

Orthodox priest: I am glad that you feel the danger of visible images of people in the place of Christ. But what is it about? We do not put an icon in the place of Christ, and you know this very well. We put the icon in proper places for the image of God in order, first of all, to always see God before our eyes.

We are sensitive people, we have eyes, ears and so on. We are, say, reading the Scriptures. But the words are in the Scripture. But words verbally represent God, a verbal icon of God also. We're not saying it's a bad thing. No, that's good. The Son of God himself, He was the image, you know that.

Baptist (speaker): Sure.

Orthodox priest: That's right. Is he to be worshipped, the Son of God?

Baptist (speaker): Sure.

Orthodox priest: Sure. But if He is to be worshipped as the image of the invisible Father, then we see that it is also possible to worship the image. And you say you can't.

Baptist (speaker): Well, of course, this is not prescribed for us.

Orthodox priest: No, no, why? Registered! Alan told us about how Jacob bowed to Esau up to seven times. And why did you bow? We know again that Esau was the image of God. And he honored him as a creature of God. Isn't that right? Did he not bow down as an image, but as a living God?

Baptist (speaker): Well, I'm very happy for you, of course, but God didn't want to shift our attention from Himself to some material object.

Comment: The Baptist turns the conversation around because he doesn't want to admit that it's okay to pay homage to created beings, as the Bible repeatedly confirms. It is only necessary to distinguish such worship from the service due to the one God.

Orthodox priest: I didn't understand the idea.

Baptist (speaker): God did not want to shift our attention from Himself to any material object.

Orthodox priest: "I will enter into your house; I will worship at your holy temple" (Psalm 5: 8). … So what...

Baptist (speaker): Well, this is, you know, a figurative expression, in the sense that he is happy to go where God is present.

Orthodox priest: Yes, what a figurative, he bows to the temple. We were told…Joshua, who fell and lay before the Ark of the Covenant until evening (Nab. 7: 6)...

Baptist (speaker): I'm glad myself, I went here [to the Ipatievsky Monastery-ed. When I saw it, I even wanted to cross myself.

Orthodox priest: What prevented it?

Baptist (speaker): I prayed...

Baptist (from the audience): The word of God interfered.

Baptist (speaker): Without human hands ... prayed, yes, without human hands. I think... I have a video, of course, and I'll send it to Alan later, where I'm looking at a book for a Doctor of Divinity degree all the way to Cambridge. And there is the work "Theology of Icons" by an evangelical Christian Baptist, a believer.

Orthodox priest: Fairbairn?

Baptist (speaker): I don't remember his name. No, there's some kind of Russian there. I don't know how he got the money to study there. Here is such a situation, and yes, it is, of course, it is acceptable, as if we observe here in Pereyaslavl, I believe, if people are illiterate, because the same ancient monasteries were sources of enlightenment and missionary work in Ancient Russia. But the people are illiterate. Here I want to say, thank God, the Soviet government. For what? For the fact that they almost eliminated one hundred percent illiteracy. There are no illiterate people left. Even the gypsies, and then, I meet that there are three classes so finished, they can read and write.

But I agree that the people here, if they are illiterate, have such a special kind of icons in such a strict monastery, so to speak, in Nikitsky, in Pereslavl-Zalessky, where evangelical events are depicted, and it is easy for a modern Sunday school teacher to tell the Gospel itself from them. In principle, how can the Symbol of Faith be told?

Baptist (from the audience): Visual subject is simple.

Baptist (speaker): Yes. Visual subject, all right. I agree that, well, of course, you get a little creepy and terrified when you look at the scene of the Last Judgment ... here. And so, let's say we have a temple of Elijah the Prophet on Sovetskaya Square, the government of the Yaroslavl region. I've brought you a picture of him, by the way.

Orthodox (speaker): We, Dmitry, somehow all this is not in the subject... We have to discuss all the issues...

Baptist (speaker): Well, of course, let's do it.

Orthodox priest: And maybe I will hear the answer to the question about the Incarnation of God, because I understand that you do not mind that it is possible to worship man as the image of God, it is possible to worship the Son of God as the image of the invisible Father.

So, worshipping the image is, in principle, possible. Hence the question is not about worshiping the image as such, but the man-made image. And so the foundation of non-worship of the man-made image lies in two things. First, what was already said in Deuteronomy, that the Jews did not see the image, but we did see the image. So, this argument is removed.

Comment: The second thing is the absurd Protestant identification with idols (i.e. false images) of any man-made image in the context of the second commandment of Moses. It is clear that the prophet Moses himself, who made images of cherubim in the tabernacle at the command of God, could not consider them idols. They worshiped, as already mentioned, Joshua in front of the ark of the Covenant, David in front of the temple, and Jacob on the top of the rod (Hebrews 11:21). These were all man-made shrines, not idols.

Baptist (speaker): Wait, who "we" saw the image of?

Baptist (from the audience): Yes, this is also interesting, who saw it? Have you seen it? We are now in the modern world, as you saw?

Orthodox priest: We Christians know about the Incarnation of God. Hence the icon, which doctrinally asserts the act of Incarnation for us.

Baptist (from the audience): Well, I'll draw it now, will it be an icon?

Baptist (speaker): We still do not have reliable images of Jesus Christ...

Baptist (from the audience): Here is the question, I will draw, will there be an icon?

Orthodox priest: No, it won't be an icon.

Baptist (from the audience): Why?

Orthodox priest: Because an icon must have signs of canonicity. Your drawing is unlikely to be such.

Baptist (from the audience): And why did you get that sign of canonicity, some person wrote it?

Orthodox priest: Because this is not my opinion or your opinion, this is the teaching of the Church. It is important for the Church that the icon, as I have briefly shown you, has some symbolic features. Without them, there will be a child's drawing. If you draw a child's drawing like an icon, I will not throw it under my feet...

Baptist (from the audience): At the seventh synods, everyone, just the episcopate, all said that they would throw out all the icons. This is a historical fact. Read it out?

Orthodox (speaker): They mean the Cathedral of St. Jerome.

Baptist (from the audience): There were three cathedrals in forty years. You know, right?

Orthodox priest: I'm aware of that.

Baptist (from the audience): One was canceled, the second was given from Irina's hand, and the monks were also called to make 350 more than 380. And then you're already there just to leave for the ignorant. I mean, over the past forty years, all these people have already had such incidents, right? But we are so figuratively now just remembered the story.

Orthodox priest: If we talk about the Council of bishops...

Comment: Baptist first started talking about history, and then refused to answer for his own statements. In general, it is surprising when Protestants try to teach us our own church history. They are the ones who are strangers to this story, and for us it is our own flesh and blood. Without even touching on the formal aspects of recognizing the council as Orthodox, let's say the following. If they accept the Iberian Iconoclastic Council, let them also accept the worship of the Mother of God and the saints established there, and let them accept the first six Ecumenical Councils with their canonical rules. Let them also accept the episcopate, which has apostolic succession, because such were all the fathers of the council of 754. Let them also accept the Orthodox Eucharist, because all these bishops celebrated it. Let them accept Orthodox churches and other things that were accepted by the participants of the Council of Jerii. But no, Protestants reject all this.

Baptist (from the audience): Right now, we don't see a second. Here we go. The apostles were directly with Christ. Which of the apostles drew the icon or image to transmit it?

Orthodox (from the audience): Luka drew...there is a legend that Luka drew...

Baptist (from the audience): Question. Was Luke one of the apostles? Just a second. I said 12 apostles, directly with Christ. Which of the 12 apostles drew it?

Orthodox priest: Well, not all artists...

Baptist (from the audience): Well, I'm asking you a question.

Orthodox priest: Well, not all artists...

Baptist (from the audience): Because you said ," we saw." And then you will answer this question. Because to continue the discussion...

Baptist (speaker). – We don't have a picture of Him in Christ's lifetime. They don't exist. And the spiritual nature, it is still the relevance of the image.

Orthodox priest: "Oh, senseless Galatians! who has deceived you into not obeying the truth, you who had the Law written before your eyes?Jesus Christ, as if he were crucified among you" (Galatians 3: 1). Don't you know this text, or what?

Baptist (speaker). We know perfectly well.

Orthodox priest: Well, then, what's the matter? If we see a spiritual icon of Christ, who prevents Us from portraying Him in colors?

Baptist (from the audience): I never heard who drew it.

Orthodox priest: Various icon painters wrote.

Comment: The Baptist's insistent question shows a deep misunderstanding of the meaning of the icon, and even an unwillingness to understand it. The icon does not claim to be photographic accuracy, but is a theology in color. It reflects spiritual reality. Without creating a new faith, icon veneration only affirmed the original faith in Christ, but with a new force of persuasiveness for the senses: not only for hearing, but also for seeing. Thus, the new form did not change the dogmatic content of faith. And if new forms of preaching the same faith are impossible in principle, then why do Baptists use television and the Internet, use telephones and other modern technical innovations? The apostles did not have them either.

Baptist (from the audience): Can I read Galatians further? "My children, for whom I am again in the pangs of birth, until Christ is formed in you." In you! And so it is written in Colossians, " Christ is in you, the hope of glory." So let's take a look. Alan gave the example of his wife. When do we look at a photo of our wife? When we communicate with her in the kitchen or at home. Or when we're apart? Most of all?

Orthodox (speaker): I always have it with me.

Baptist (from the audience): It's always with you, but when we watch it and somehow ... kiss...

Orthodox (speaker): When apart.

Baptist (from the audience): When apart. By this we show that Christ has not yet been represented in us. Why? Because we live with him as if in separation and understand that He is far away from us. But when...

Note that the Apostle Paul writes this to the Church of Christ. "Until Christ is formed in you." And that they did not depict Christ? Yes, at that time it was not depicted. Therefore, when we live by faith in the Lord, we come into contact with the Lord in order to have some thoughts about Christ from all that is visible, even when we read the Word of God, in order to somehow draw an image, so that Christ begins to live and act in us, so that He is depicted in us.

Well, if you can say in Russian, we were... In us, Christ would be, so to speak, like an icon, not an icon, that is, an image. Our life has become an image of Christ.

Orthodox (speaker): Can you say that to yourself?

Baptist (from the audience): No, wait, come on. Immediately on the person, right?

Orthodox (speaker): No, I'm just curious… I have never seen such a person.

Baptist (from the audience): Yes, I can say that. No, I can say that. Here is a simple example. My wife and I live together, so I just ask her a question: "Have you ever seen the Lord manifest in me?" She says, " more than once."

Orthodox (speaker): But not always.

Baptist (from the audience): Of course, not always. I've seen it more than once. I say, that's when the Lord's manifestation is in me, to this one... there are positive qualities in a person, there are negative qualities, yes, this one, I say, hold on, and my carnal nature also manifests itself… There are also some complaints, that's all. Well, I won't say that it was Christ who was portrayed in me with such discontent...

Orthodox (speaker): Here...

Baptist (from the audience): Yes, but now, the Apostle Paul is teaching the churchthat Christ, well, takes over in us. Pictured. And when we carry it around and kiss it, Alan, you said it right… That we still somehow see It in a different way. But when It begins to be portrayed in us, here is one look. It is written, pray without ceasing. We accept this closeness of the Lord. We don't need when we see this proximity, we don't need the image here at this moment.

Orthodox (speaker): Can I ask you a question? Immediately?

Baptist (from the audience): Yes, yes, yes. Good.

Orthodox (speaker): And you can say that not you personally, but in your community, everything is always...

Orthodox priest: He said to himself...

Orthodox (speaker): Do you always see yourself (you or others), that Christ dwells in you in fullness?

Orthodox priest: Not always.

Orthodox (speaker): You said not always...

Orthodox priest: That's exactly why icons are needed...

Baptist (from the audience): But his presence is always there.

Orthodox (speaker): No, you do not get distracted from it by fuss, do not do anything?

Baptist (from the audience): No, we're getting distracted. But his closeness is always 24 to 7. That's when the Lord revealed himself, at the age of 22 he revealed himself to me. So He became alive for me, real, everything. From that moment on, I never got over seeing Him in the distance. He's always close.

Baptist (from the audience): I'll continue. When this question is asked, I talk to my son and say, son, now take my picture, turn away from me and start talking. He says, what are you, Dad? And I say, you must admit, it's kind of ridiculous. I'm with you. Yes. Why do I need a photo? I say the same thing. When a person inside sees God with spiritual eyes, he does not need any other images.

Orthodox priest: Andrew, may I?

Baptist (from the audience): You are welcome.

Orthodox priest: Here we are now going to separate places. Well, here you go home, I'll go home. And I'm talking to you via video link. Here. And you look at me on the screen, and I look at you on the screen. Here you will address me, looking at the screen. And if I react to something there, then, you know...

Second Baptist (from the audience): I'll be there for you.

Orthodox priest: This is understandable, but looking at the screen.

Second Baptist (from the audience): Yes.

Orthodox priest: Right?

Second Baptist (from the audience): Yes.

Orthodox priest: So it is with God...

Second Baptist (from the audience): And God is omnipresent. It's not just in the screen, and not in the same place where we are.

Orthodox priest: Unlike you and me, God is an invisible Being. You also have a soul that speaks through your body, you know that. And I have a soul, but we don't see each other's souls. And we feel the manifestation of the soul in the body. Hence: when the body is near, I look at the body, and it is foolish to look at the intermediary of the material. But if the body is far away, and I can see your image on the video link, well, what's stopping me from talking to you, but looking here? So is the icon. It depicts an invisible God. Or an invisible saint. The Son of God, He also became incarnate and ascended. We don't have Him standing here among us. But we feel It in our souls. Therefore, when we address Him as the invisible One, in front of material shrines, we kindle love for Him in our whole being.

Baptist (from the audience): You said that correctly. This is us. But this is not what Christ commanded. That's the point. This is us, but Christ did not command it. And this is ours. That's how you liked it. I'm so, I'm so. But how much does God need it?

Orthodox Priest: Can I ask you a quick question?

Baptist (from the audience): I always compare it to Scripture.

Orthodox priest: A brief question. Very brief. Or even two. Dmitry and I have already found out that the commandments of God must be understood correctly. For example, God has commanded us to honor the Sabbath Day. And you probably won't read it. And why?

Baptist (from the audience): What's Saturday?

Orthodox priest: Saturday afternoon. "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy."

Baptist (from the audience): What does it mean to read?

Baptist (speaker): The day of rest has shifted...

Baptist (from the audience): With your understanding, what is read?

Orthodox priest: No, there is a lot of information about veneration.

Baptist (from the audience): Well, specifically, what is read?

Orthodox priest: No work can be done on the Sabbath day according to the Old Testament law – you can't light a fire, you can't cook food, you can't carry firewood, you can't carry other burdens.

Baptist (from the audience): Where was that?" In the Old Testament?

Orthodox priest: In the Law of Moses, of course...

Baptist (from the audience): In the Old One, yes. And the whole law was fulfilled in Christ.

Orthodox priest: Where do you see the abrogating commandment?

Baptist (from the audience): It doesn't cancel, it's executable.

Orthodox priest: Dmitry's report began with the second commandment. So I took the fourth one from the same list. And I say, why not? Where do you see direct cancellation? It's not there.

You accept the teaching of the Church, which moves the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday for the sake of the resurrection of Christ. And you're doing the right thing. But there is no such direct commandment? No way! So ... where do you see the commandment to pray to Christ? Show me on the line the commandment to pray to Christ as God.

Baptist (from the audience): And who is Christ?

Orthodox priest: Where is the commandment to pray to Christ as God?

Baptist (from the audience): He's a God.

Orthodox priest: Where is the commandment to pray to Christ as God?

Second Baptist (from the audience): "If ye ask me, I say not unto you" ... that is, it is from John, I will find it now (John 16: 26)

Orthodox priest: So this is what I told the apostles in person.

Second Baptist (from the audience): No, he was already leaving.

Baptist (speaker): "Until now, you haven't asked for anything"...

Orthodox priest: "Ask in My name," not Me, but in My name. And where is the commandment of prayer to Christ personally? Show it on the line.

Baptist (from the audience): Can you show me?

Orthodox priest: This is the teaching of the Church.

Baptist (from the audience): No, can you show me about the prayer to Christ?

Orthodox priest: This is the teaching of the Church. This is a church commandment. We trust the Church in this matter. And you trust the Orthodox Church in this matter. And you're doing the right thing.

Baptist (from the audience): You are so interesting: a church, as if it were a building of some kind. These are people.

Orthodox priest: The Lord gave a teaching to the Church.

Comment: The reaction of Protestants is very characteristic. The priest showed them two examples when they act not according to the Bible, but according to the teachings of the Church. This is honoring Sunday instead of Saturday and praying To Jesus Christ as God. It would seem that the Baptists should have accepted the teaching authority of the Church here. But they just move on to another question. It is also worth clarifying that the last words of St. Stephen addressed to Christ before his death are not a general commandment. We can take this as a particular example, that if you are going to be stoned and you see Christ before you die, it will be desirable to address Him personally. But the general commandment about praying to Christ as God is definitely not here, it is precisely the teaching of the Church, which Baptists also unconditionally accept.

Baptist (from the audience): It's just that there is a moment. You asked me a question. Whether there is always one...Look at this.

Orthodox (speaker): Please state the question again so that everyone understands. "Are you always in Christ, not distracted by vanity..."

Baptist (from the audience): No, do you always feel close to the Lord?

Orthodox (speaker): No, it's different. Do you always remember God?

Baptist (from the audience): About God, yes. That's what I'd like...Are you married?

Orthodox (speaker): Yes.

Baptist (from the audience): Are there any moments when you and your wife quarreled?

Orthodox (speaker): Yes.

Baptist (from the audience): Tell me, is communication disrupted?

Orthodox (speaker): Yes.

Baptist (from the audience): Well, do you live with your wife, or do you immediately move out to an apartment somewhere?

Orthodox (speaker): No.

Baptist (from the audience): But communication is disrupted, there is closeness, I mean, communication is.

Orthodox (speaker): Much worse...

Baptist (from the audience): But you are still in the same apartment, in the same house.

Orthodox priest: What's the question?

Baptist (from the audience): Here. And now there is such a moment. When we grieve the Lord. Communication is disrupted. But this consciousness of His presence is never lost. You must understand this. Because when we sin...And if the consciousness of this presence... so to speak, if communication remained on the same level, then we would not understand sin.

Orthodox priest: Pavel, you have just stepped aside... we say: the icon helps us come to repentance.

Baptist (from the audience): No, we are now talking about closeness to the Lord, which overlaps with this photo.

Orthodox (speaker): I mean, you don't always look like God, but you still have something somewhere.

Baptist (from the audience): This consciousness is always there...Why? Because in any case ... I just want to give an example. We make elections every day. With any choice, always inside, Lord, tell me. How? Inside. What do I do here?

Orthodox priest: Let's finish with two words each.

Orthodox (speaker): Yes, yes. Look, Paul, it's clear from what you just said that you said that sometimes you don't think about the Lord. You are immersed in vanity, really, maybe you are not sinning there, and so on. The Scriptures say that a person should constantly think about God. "Pray without ceasing." The first Psalm says that "blessed is the man who thinks day and night about the law" and so on.

Baptist (from the audience): Yes.

Orthodox (speaker): You can't do it.

Baptist (from the audience): I didn't say that. Alan, you've got a bunch of...

Orthodox (speaker): No, why not?

Orthodox priest: I suggest you discuss this after our meeting.

Orthodox (speaker): No, in other words, if a person cannot constantly think about God, and the icon helps him to do this, then...

Orthodox priest: It's good.

Orthodox (speaker): Yes, that's good.

Baptist (from the audience): Okay, Alan, I'll ask you a question. How do you always wear the icon in front of you?

Orthodox priest: Well, no, of course not.

Baptist (from the audience): Does it constantly give you a memory of God?

Orthodox (speaker): Very often, for example, at work, in the car.

Baptist (from the audience): Every second of your life...

Orthodox (speaker): I often pay attention to it.

Baptist (from the audience): Very often, but not always...

Orthodox (speaker): But if it didn't exist, it would have been much smaller...

Orthodox priest: Yes, yes, not always, not always, but only if I saw her!

Baptist (speaker): The memory of God is never superfluous.

Orthodox priest: Here!

Orthodox (speaker): So why don't you wear icons then?

Orthodox priest: Absolutely, that's right.

Baptist (speaker): We have our own icons...

Orthodox priest: The best ways to notice and remember... At least through a thing... at least through an icon, Dmitry says correctly.

Orthodox (speaker): So no, I have a question then. Then why are there no icons?

Baptist (from the audience): We don't forget...

Orthodox (speaker): Do you always remember?

Baptist (from the audience): One hundred percent! The spirit is reborn.

Baptist (speaker): Alan, there are some activities we are called to do that require our attention. That we can't think about God at this moment. But only... Even Bryanchaninov wrote, we pray at the beginning of the work, ask for a blessing, and at the end we give thanks. If our activity is focused, it requires concentration. Otherwise, we won't get very far.

Orthodox priest: I suggest it... We were reproached by Andrew for the fact that there were iconoclastic cathedrals, and we left it unanswered. Let me briefly answer about this.

We will not go deeper, I will answer briefly.

Baptist (speaker): Please have a story...

Orthodox priest: The history of the Church offers us councils not only Orthodox, but also when bishops voice a heretical opinion. For example, the 4th century offers us many heretical and Arian cathedrals. Does this mean that this is what the church taught? No, the church rejected these councils.

Similarly, the two iconoclastic cathedrals of 754 and 815. Both of these... Two cathedrals. It's been there for more than 40 years. Both of these councils церковьwere rejected by the Church. The Church's teaching is not that of these heretics, but of the Church – the Church's teaching is such as we state that one must worship God in spirit and Truth, no doubt, but also through material sanctity.

While the honor paid to a material shrine does not go back to itself, not to the blackboard with paints, but to the Prototype, to the one depicted for the greater glory of God.

Baptist (speaker): Well, look at how the Apostle Paul writes about those people who speak unfamiliar languages. What would ordinary people say? Do you not rage because there is no interpretation?

Orthodox priest: That's right.

Baptist (speaker): So here, too, people without understanding God will say whether they are not idolatrous.

Orthodox priest: That's what you said in your report, and we discussed what needs to be taught. Which we do by the grace of God to the best of our ability.

Baptist (from the audience): And the most interesting thing is that for some reason you only have an icon of Christ, but you have a lot of other images, people, I mean.

Orthodox priest: That's right, that's right

Baptist (speaker): Difficult people...

Orthodox priest: Not simple, not like you and me, yes.

Baptist (from the audience): Not simple ones. Not ordinary people, who there, well, I don't know how they got into the rank of saints, yes, let's say so. Or do you revere them as saints, I don't seem to have any complaints, no questions to you.

Baptist (speaker): Prophets, holy fathers...

Orthodox priest: Yes.

Baptist (from the audience): Just, well, yes. They are all on a par with Christ-everything is clear. Well, I even know from my mother-in-law that she doesn't even have an image of Christ, an icon, yes, Matrona is hanging, yes. And my father came and didn't even remind me that we should have Christ here too, how would that be...

Orthodox priest: Do you think it is necessary?

Baptist (from the audience): Yes, no, I'm just saying, why do you have all this on a par...

Orthodox priest: I like that you internally feel the need for an icon of Christ. You argue with us, but you feel it inwardly.

Baptist (from the audience): No, I've already said my opinion on why I don't need it. Well, I said that on my own, yes. I'm not telling you that you need to cross everything out.

Orthodox (from the audience): A small question, just exactly in the context of what we are currently discussing. What you said sounds like we are discussing the perfection of your community in relation to our community.

That is, you are already so, well, now I will prove my point, that you are so perfect that you do not even need to look at the image of Christ, at the image of Christ, in order to always remember God.

You are more perfect, we are less perfect, and we say we need it. But in this context, I want to ask whether all of you understand the statement of the 7th Ecumenical Council that the veneration of the image passes to the original image? Do you understand that? The definition itself? Or I get the feeling that you don't fully understand what I'm talking about.

Orthodox (speaker): Yes, if you need clarification, see...

Baptist (from the audience): It's all described in the Scripture that honoring...

Orthodox (from the audience): No, no, wait, do you understand the wording itself, the meaning of this wording? I mean, when I look, I refer to the image, I don't refer to this drawing, you know? I am turning to God now. Do you understand?

Baptist (from the audience): We understand.

Orthodox (from the audience): The same thing that you say, that you turn to God, but you don't look. You are so perfect that you either have an inner image, or you are somehow different.

Baptist (from the audience): Here is the Scripture, here is how we look, so that you may also understand, this is how it helps me to look. I open the Scriptures and read where Christ was crucified, if the specifics are correct. Here it is. After reading, a spiritual image appears. That's the point. I'm just explaining what this is about.

Orthodox (speaker): Can you imagine Christ at this moment? Can you imagine at this moment? How is He crucified, for example?

Baptist (from the audience): Do you know who does this? The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit reveals all this.

Orthodox (speaker): So what is He like...

Baptist (from the audience): So I don't need an image there. There is an understanding of what Christ himself revealed.

Orthodox (speaker): Is there an image in your head?

Baptist (from the audience): Probably not. It doesn't make sense. Do you understand? Even if I present something there, it doesn't make sense.

Orthodox (from the audience): Do you have a teaching about this, what can be imagined or not imagined?

Baptist (from the audience): You can read it. Here it is written to the Hebrews: "Looking to the author and finisher of the faith, Jesus." Looking out. "...who, instead of the joy that was set before him, endured the cross; who despised the shame, and sat одеснуюdown at the right hand of the throne of God. Think of him who has suffered self-reproach" (Hebrews 12: 2, 3). You can look with your eyes or you can look with your thoughts.

Orthodox priest: So, you can still...

Baptist (from the audience): You can look with your mind.

Baptist Pastor: With the eyes of the heart... by faith in Christ...

Baptist (from the audience): But you don't think of an image. You understand inwardly what Christ did for you on Calvary. And with our eyes... we need an image, our eyes. Now, when we think about the One Who has Suffered, this is consciousness, not thinking, but the consciousness of His presence, well, what else can we say? But God is Spirit. It is not displayed in our brain through the eyes. We understand that only material things are displayed. But the consciousness of His presence, it is real.

God's presence, I do not know how to explain it. But this is consciousness. That He is here, that He is near. And through thought, we can look at Him, what He has done, how He treats us. It's written, I read it today. "Take care of Him." Here I read the Word of God and it says: "to lay care on him." And I have worries that are in my heart. Thank you for guiding me and getting down on my knees. And this is all that is in my heart, what worries weighed down, I took and opened it all. And the questions were resolved. With the heart decided. But this question is just a thought looking...

Orthodox (from the audience): We understand what you're saying.

Baptist Pastor: No, no, let's speak out to those who haven't spoken yet. Eugene asked us where in the New Testament the commandment to pray to Jesus Christ is written. There is no such commandment, but there are facts.

Orthodox priest: Oh, there is no commandment!

Baptist Pastor: 1 Corinthians 1: 2: "To those who are called to be saints, with all who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, both with them and with us" (1 Corinthians 1:2). Calling on the name of the Lord.

Orthodox priest: The vocation of a name is a complex form, it can mean different things.

Baptist Pastor: Good. Question about the Iconoclastic Council. There you said what year, 734 or what?

Orthodox priest: Two cathedrals. The first and main one is the Council of Jerii in 754.

Baptist Pastor: The Nicene One?

Orthodox (speaker): Iberian.

Baptist Pastor: The priests were gathered there...

Orthodox priest: The city of Ieria. Hence the name of the cathedral – Ieriysky.

Baptist Pastor: What year is this, 754?

Orthodox priest: Year 754.

Baptist Pastor: 338 chiefs and bishops gathered there.

Orthodox priest: Yes.

Did these bishops represent the true Orthodox Church, or were all the true bishops somewhere out of the way? And they didn't come to this meeting.

Orthodox priest: I'll give it to you in a moment…Look, we have a complex system of church governance. At that time, we had 5 patriarchates. One of the main ones is Constantinople. And this council was within the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Constantinople only. There were no Roman bishops, no Antioch bishops, no Jerusalem bishops, well, for a number of reasons, it turned out that way, for political reasons.

Accordingly, this council was not an ecumenical one. Although there were many bishops, it was a local council of one church. Other local churches did not accept this council. That is, it did not have the status to make the entire church iconoclastic. The same applies to the Cathedral of 815.

But if we take the 7th Ecumenical Council, it was ecumenical. Either all the bishops have come together, or the bishops ' representatives.

Baptist (pastor): Wait, these 338 bishops, they represented the same locality, right?

Orthodox (speaker): One, yes.

Orthodox (from the audience): One patriarchy.

Orthodox (speaker): Only one patriarchate, and there was not a single patriarch...

Baptist Pastor: Were they from the city of Constantinople?

Orthodox priest: No, from Byzantium, but within the diocese, within just one patriarchate.

Baptist Pastor: Were they true Orthodox priests, or had they already retreated?

Orthodox priest: They were properly ordained, that is, they were real bishops, but professed a false teaching. Hence, they were cursed by the seventh Ecumenical Council.

Baptist Pastor: And there was also among them... were there only bishops, or was there also a patriarch? Was the Patriarch of Constantinople there?

Orthodox priest: No, he died shortly before this council, and the cathedral was headless.

Orthodox (speaker): That is, without the patriarch...

Orthodox priest: Not a single patriarch was there.

Baptist Pastor: It's just that too many bishops have condemned the icons.

Orthodox priest: Yes, absolutely.

Baptist Pastor: So, it turns out that you said that the Orthodox Church is always a monolith, there is no division inside.

Orthodox priest: Yes, there is always sin in the experiential church, but this sin is overcome by the power of God. I told you about the 4th century and the Arian cathedrals. These, too, were legitimate ordained bishops who taught the lie that Jesus Christ was not God. But, however, God intervened by His power, and in the end, where are they? They are not there, but the church is standing.

Baptist Pastor: What if it wasn't God who intervened? Eugene, what if the devil intervened through Irina, this empress? And she was there, well, she really wanted to approve all these icons, and there she introduced 150 monks to this...

Orthodox (speaker): Then it turns out that Jesus lied...

Baptist Pastor: They shouldn't have voted there. But she saw that most of them would not be there.

Orthodox priest: We believe that the church is "the pillar and foundation of the Truth according to the word of Christ." Accordingly, since we see the historical body of the Church continuous and the teaching of the Church continuous, we believe that this is the Truth God's will. Then there's the argument that you all ignored, and I'm surprised. Alan testified many times about miracles from icons. Are these miracles of God or false?

Baptist (speaker): And such-such can be.

Orthodox priest: I'm not arguing, but can there be God's prayers?

Baptist (speaker): They can, because of the weakness of faith.

Baptist Pastor: I do not know because I have not seen it. That's how I'll answer for myself. I didn't see it, so I don't know. In general, are there any such miracles there?

Orthodox priest: Can I give you an example?

Baptist Pastor: I don't know.

Orthodox priest: My wife, she also restores icons. And so she was once given an icon with such a story for restoration.

The icon belonged to a woman who lived in the city of Sukhumi in '93 or' 92, during the war with the Georgians. And Georgian tanks were brought in and shelled the city. And, in particular, the house where this woman lived. Multistory.

We've been to Sukhumi several times, and I've seen the tracks. And this woman came out on the balcony with this icon. And the icon is, well, not a masterpiece. Well, an icon and an icon of such simple folk writing. The Resurrection of Christ. I went out on the balcony with this icon and stood there. And tanks were shooting at her. And so the tanks damaged neighboring houses. It didn't get hit, and the house didn't get hit.

Tell me, in your opinion, this woman wasn't just standing there holding the icon, she was praying, of course. So, in your opinion, did the Lord protect her or not?

Baptist (speaker): Protected, by prayer.

Orthodox priest: That's right!

Baptist Pastor: By grace.

Orthodox priest: That's right! But she also kept the icon as a material relic.

Baptist (speaker): But it was necessary...

Orthodox priest: But if it's an idol, well, wouldn't the Lord have shown that it's idolatry?

Baptist (speaker): Idolatry, if she had turned all her faith to this icon, and not to God.

Orthodox priest: Right! So you are voicing the correct faith of the Church. We turn our faith to God!

Baptist (speaker): But this case does not show to what it is needed.

Orthodox priest: Let me draw a little picture here, and this example will make it clearer to you what we are talking about. So, why does the Lord forbid idolatry in the second commandment?

Because it is an idol, it is the ultimate destination молитвыof the idolater's prayer. He asks the idol for help. Well, there, in everyday affairs, in health or something else. But "an idol in the world is nothing" (1 Corinthians 8:4), says the apostle. Isn't that right? It does not Exist, it is created by the handiwork of men, even if there is a demon there, the demon is also not the true God. So the idol is nothing. Hence idolatry is false worship. What is worship of God through icons? The believer, looking at the icon, turns his prayer to God, as in this example of mine, about which Dmitry said that the prayer was correct, because it was addressed to God, although the icon was in his hands.

God is the true Being. Prayer to Him is correct, even if only through a material shrine. What is the problem? Why can't we pray to God, the Creator of Heaven and Earth, but before a material shrine, in order to strengthen our senses, our faith, proving the reality of the Incarnation of God for our senses? What's wrong?

Baptist (from the audience): That's just the question. That's how I think or you think, it's one question. Now the question is, does God think so?

Orthodox priest: Well, if God performs miracles?

Baptist (from the audience): Just a second, just a second…As you say, we pray to God through the icon. And how sure are you that God accepts your prayer through the icon?

Orthodox (speaker): Based on the answers....

Orthodox priest: If the question is specific, then yes, we understand...

Baptist (from the audience): I mean, miracles.

Orthodox (speaker): Not only that, but also the answer...

Orthodox priest: Including miracles.

Orthodox (speaker): I prayed through the icon and received an answer.

Baptist (from the audience): Well, then He must have written it somewhere. Then it should write if it is important.

Baptist (speaker): Take, for example, the defense of Moscow.. After all, the point is not that the icon is something, but that people have prayed to God.

Orthodox priest: That's right.

Baptist (speaker): And it's not the icon that matters...

Orthodox priest: Don't tell me. If it wasn't for the icon, they would have taken it with them.

Baptist (from the audience): That's right, I agree here...

Baptist (speaker): God, who entered into a covenant with Israel, for the sake of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, answered the prayers of Israel, even though they had groves, oaks,and high places, and they limped on both knees as if they were spiritual. He answered anyway. I think it's cleaner here, too, if you come straight to Christ.

Orthodox priest: No, wait. Let me remind you again. We do not venerate icons as idols. We don't have icons like the true God.

Baptist (speaker): You don't, but people do?

Orthodox priest: They should be taught. You often tell a person the clarity of the Bible's teaching, and they refuse to learn. So, as for Israel. We don't limp on both knees. We present the correct church teaching.

Baptist (from the audience): I asked a question. Direct communication. Icon and God. Yes, does God accept? If he had accepted and wanted to, He would have written it down. And now, if the second person, the same person, any one, without the icon would have prayed to God, would God not have answered him?

Orthodox priest: Andrew, this is not serious.

Baptist (from the audience): Well, it's not serious, don't answer me.

Orthodox priest: I just told you. On the line show me the record of a prayer to Christ. You said that there is no such string. But we understand that Jesus takes prayer to Himself. Now what do you want us to do to show the opposite? What if it is not written on the line, then this can not be done.

Baptist (from the audience): You yourself agreed that it's not an icon when Dima speaks. Not an icon, but a direct prayer to God. So, I say, if the icon wasn't there, I would ask a question. Without the icon, a person would pray. Would God have responded?

Orthodox priest: If there is persecution. They'll put me in a dungeon...

Orthodox (speaker): Not always, we see that in the Old Testament...

Baptist (from the audience): Why does it always answer me?

Orthodox (speaker): Or maybe you're imagining it?

Baptist (from the audience): Hallelujah! Maybe you think so, too?

Orthodox (speaker): Often God is on the pagesIt was from the Holy Scriptures that he received prayers from the righteous. They prayed to him, but God says, no, I won't accept your prayer. Let Job pray for you, for example...

Orthodox priest: By the way, intermediaries... yes… We didn't answer this question...

Orthodox (speaker): As for intermediaries, I would like to say. You said that "there is one Mediator and Intercessor" ...

Baptist (speaker): I didn't say the Word of God. The Word of God.

Orthodox (speaker): What did you mean, in a nutshell, just a nutshell… what you had in mind.

Baptist (speaker): Good. "For there is one God," that is, one; there is no other God.

Orthodox (speaker): I'm talking about the intermediary...

Baptist (speaker): We go consistently... There is one, that is, one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" ...

Orthodox (speaker): How does this relate to the icon theme? I'm just clarifying.

Baptist (speaker): To the topic of icons, that neither an icon nor a person is an intermediary in the relationship between God and man.

Orthodox (speaker): I ask what I asked last time. Do you have a prayer group on your phone or Viber?

Baptist (speaker): Well, of course.

Orthodox (speaker): So why do you ask and burden your fellow men when there is only one Mediator and you can pray directly to Christ? Why is this: "I'm going to a dispute in Kostroma. Please pray that the Orthodox people will be dealt with."

Baptist (from the audience): Yes, intense prayer can do a lot, it is written...

Orthodox (speaker): If you can communicate directly and you are the only intermediary, why did you, for example, all pray together before entering?

Baptist (from the audience): For reinforcement purposes. Intense prayer can do a lot...

Baptist (speaker): "Pray for one another."

Orthodox (speaker): Here's a contradiction!

Baptist (from the audience): There is no contradiction.

Orthodox (speaker): I ask you to be a kind of intermediary between me and God.

Baptist (from the audience): Why? No. That's where the misunderstanding is! Here is a misunderstanding where… You don't understand...

Baptist (speaker): I'm not asking as a mediator, I'm just asking you to pray for me.

Orthodox (speaker): And the saint is the same person whom we ask to pray to God for us. I didn't help myself with my divine power, but ...

Baptist (speaker): I understand that everyone is alive with God and it is better to turn...

Orthodox (speaker): It is not an intermediary. He is the one we ask for, our prayer book, the same as you are in Viber. We ask for a holy man. Not an apparent saint, but a real saint.

Baptist (speaker): The same David: "do they praise God in the grave?" (Psalm 6: 6)

Orthodox (speaker): This is the Old Testament. Everyone went to hell.

Baptist (speaker): "Do they ask the dead for the living" ...(Isaiah 8: 19)

Orthodox (speaker): You graduated from the seminary, Dmitry Igorevich. This is the Old Testament. And all the people went to hell.

Baptist (speaker): It's clear. I know what the Universal Churchis, the Triumphant Church...

Orthodox priest: And in the Book of Revelation, the prayers of the saints are raised up to the throne of God by the hand of an Angel (Revelation 8: 4). Well, don't you know that... the saints are alive, their prayers are alive before God? Come on…You say so yourself...

Baptist (speaker): Prayers are alive… Maybe we also sit for prayer...

Baptist Pastor: There is another text that says that Jesus Christ is the only Mediator. He himself said, " I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me "(John 14:6) And not just on the narrow path to eternal life. But no one comes to the Father in prayer every day except through Christ.

Orthodox Priest: Sergey, Dmitry can I ask you both a question? Brief, exegetical? There is a text like this-2 Corinthians 5: 20. I'll read it. "Therefore, we are messengers in the name of Christ, and as if God Himself exhorts through us; in the name of Christ we ask: be reconciled to God." A well-known place.

Please tell me, does the Apostle Paul act in this passage as a mediator between God and the Corinthian believers?

Baptist Pastor: What Paul is referring to here is not between God and believers, but between the name of Christ and unbelievers.

Orthodox priest: How so? "In the name of Christ.".. "God warns through us.".. We exhort you, be reconciled to God, and ask you… This is an intermediary function...

Baptist (from the audience): This is God himself...

Baptist (speaker): Tell me again the place...

Orthodox priest: 2 Corinthians 5: 20.

Baptist (from the audience): God himself admonishes... Through whom?

Orthodox priest: And as if God himself ... messengers in the name of Christ, asking in the name of Christ. This is an intermediary function.

Baptist (from the audience): So, was he praying, or something?

Orthodox (from the audience): They set themselves up as intermediaries.

Orthodox priest: The apostle considers himself a mediator between God and people. We... "You are God's field, you are God's building" (1 Corinthians 3:9). And who are we? Do you remember?

Baptist (speaker): But this is a human agency, not a spiritual one.

Baptist (from the audience): Acts, chapter 14.

Orthodox priest: Don't we ask for prayers? The apostles? Aren't we asking for it?

Baptist (from the audience): Acts, chapter 14. It says, when they wanted to lay wreaths on them ... said, "Gods in the form of a man," what did they do?

An Orthodox priest: A perfect example.

Orthodox (speaker): The gods...

Baptist (from the audience): In the image of a man, what did he say? No, what did he say? They tore their clothes. What did he say?

Orthodox (speaker): The priest will answer… You said it yourself – the gods...

Baptist (from the audience): No, what did he say?

Orthodox priest: "And we are men like unto you." 14:15).

Baptist (from the audience): You humans. Do you understand? They wanted to bring them honors. They refused. Then they go to the temple. One who has the spirit of prophecy says that these are people who tell us about God. These are the people who came to us to preach about God. They cast out this spirit of prophecy.

Orthodox priest: So you can't preach?…

Baptist (from the audience): Now, this is the whole point, which they don't in any way announce to themselves as intermediaries by these things. Nowhere is it written, and in general there is not even a thought that the Apostle Paul or other apostles said: pray to Christ through us or pray to God through us. You won't see such a thought anywhere.

Baptist (speaker): And I would like to add that they are here not just as intermediaries, but as messengers on behalf of Christ.

Baptist (from the audience): And it says "ambassadors"in Greek. Clearly – "ambassadors".

Baptist (speaker): Messengers, ambassadors in the name of Christ. That is, Christ guides them.

Orthodox priest: That's a good question. Can I answer it then? Question, I will summarize your question, then I will answer it. So, what is the question? When they wanted to worship the apostles as pagan gods, they rejected this worship, saying that we are people like you.

Baptist (speaker): They wanted to make a sacrifice...

Orthodox priest: Bow down... why did they do it? Because they rejected pagan worship in principle. Because these Gentiles, and those who were, and even those who were left behind from idolatry, for example, Cornelius the centurion, bowing down to Peter, I remember all these places. Now, in all these cases, because they had a pagan past or present, they put the apostles in the place of God. Which is inappropriate. The apostles, they are intercessors for us to God. They are our teachers. They are our mentors. So, of course, it was they who regenerated us with the word of truth.

So, naturally, they are intermediaries between me and God. I give them the proper reverence required by the Holy Scriptures. Is not it so? But when these people wanted to offer worship to the pagan gods, the apostles prevented them from doing so.

Baptist (from the audience): Good. Here Dmitry read, " There is one Living God, and there is also one Mediator between the Living God and people, the man Jesus Christ." Is it between what? The living God, right? Not an idol? Right?

Orthodox (speaker): Let me explain. See, what this text means is that only Christ is the person who was able to reconcile humanity with God. It is really only the Lord. But this commandment does not cancel the intercession of prayer for each other. Because in other texts of the Holy Scripture it says "pray for one another", " in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ..."

That is, there are completely different things being said here. And you understand that perfectly well, too. I repeat, again, you said every day, Sergei Antonovich, that you gathered there almost every day, asked each other for prayer, opened your hearts to the community, and prayed for each other together. The same thing happens in our case. We ask not only for our living brothers and sisters, but also for the deceased, who are undoubtedly alive with God.

Baptist (speaker): This is the topic of the next meeting, probably.

Orthodox (speaker): No, it's quiet. I apologize. We know from the Holy Scriptures that they know what is going on in the world and pray. As did, for example, the martyrs in the Book of Revelation. We know that the martyrs who were killed knew perfectly well what was happening on earth and prayed to God. Naturally, if they pray for the retribution of the wicked, it goes without saying that they also pray for the salvation of us all.

Baptist (from the audience): Not about retribution... that was said. We must not tear the text out of the Scriptures.

Orthodox (speaker): What was said? Be patient again...

Baptist (from the audience): Calm down. They weren't praying for...

Orthodox (speaker): God said "don't pray"... He said be patient ...

Baptist (from the audience): Until you repay ... yes. You do not repay... And what did he say? Calm down… But they did not lead in prayer in any way...

Orthodox (speaker): Did they pray? Who is in charge? Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker does not lead my life, but prays to God for me… He prays. The same way you pray for your brother.

Baptist Pastor: One more question, and then Nikolai Nikolaevich will have to give the floor. Look, you said that Jesus Christ is an icon of God, and we made an icon of Jesus Christ. To look at the icon, to pray to Jesus Christ. I agree that you can and should pray to Jesus Christ because he is God.

Orthodox priest: Excellent.

Baptist Pastor: Here. And if I wear this picture of my wife and even kiss her, then everything will be right. But why don't you have only one icon of Jesus Christ? And the icon of the Virgin Mary, the icon of St. Nicholas the Wonderworker, the icon of Matrona and others. And you and these icons, that is, it turns out that you have a betrayal of Christ. You carry ten photos of different women in your pocket. And look, this is my wife. Because I'm in a covenant with Christ only, right? Not in a covenant with the Virgin Mary or anyone else. And now you pull it out. Oh, I'm going to pray to the Virgin Mary today, right? I will pray through this icon. Here. But that's not right.

Orthodox priest: Ya... Alan will now answer your question. But I think that Dmitry very correctly put the question so general. It would be good, then, to devote the speech to prayers, to the teaching of the veneration of saints in the Orthodox Church. It is possible and the Virgin Mary, too, in the aggregate. Alan, please.

Orthodox (speaker): The answer to this question was in my report that the icon helps us fulfill the commandment "honor your teachers, imitate their faith" (Hebrews 13: 7). That is, we see our mentors, take the same Nicholas the Wonderworker. We see that this person has implemented the gospel commandments in his life. And we turn to him. We're looking at it.

Orthodox priest: And is a friend of God.

Baptist (from the audience): And how will it help?

Baptist Pastor: You are in a covenant only with Christ, aren't you?

Orthodox (speaker): No, see about the photos. I do not carry this icon and identify it with the icon of Christ. Christ is God. And St. Nicholas the Wonderworker is a friend of God.

Baptist (from the audience): And how can it help you? I don't understand this.

Orthodox (speaker): Can your prayer help your brother?

Baptist (from the audience): I turn to God…God will help, through prayer to God. But not Nikolai.

Orthodox priest: I misunderstood the question. You reproach us...

Baptist (from the audience): We don't blame you...

Orthodox priest: ... that if we ask the saints to pray to God, we are betraying God. And if you ask your living co-religionists to pray to God for you and you also pray, are you cheating on God or not?

Baptist Pastor: We don't make images of these religious people...

Orthodox (speaker): But make a phone call...

Baptist (from the audience): This is how we meet and pray.

Orthodox priest: We do not pray to the board with paints, not to the paper with paints… Here is an icon of the Virgin Mary, but we pray to Her...

Baptist (from the audience): Let me answer this question. Written: "if two people agree to pray for any matter, it will be done for them" (Matthew 18:19). Right? We can make a deal. Can you come to an agreement with Nicholas the Saint, agree?

Another Baptist (from the audience): How does he respond to you?

Orthodox priest: I'll answer it… You don't have the right to pray with all your heart. Two or three. And there are seven of you. You're breaking the law...

Baptist (speaker): This is a figurative expression.

Baptist (from the audience): You've broken more than that. Evgeny, you've broken more than that. Nikolai didn't answer you anyway.

Orthodox priest: Why didn't you answer? What are you!

Orthodox (from the audience): Many times!

Baptist (from the audience): What does he say to you?

Orthodox priest: How many miracles are associated with it!

Baptist (from the audience): What am I saying? I was just working with yours... How can you tell? Parishioners or what, does she sing in the choir? She: "Nikolai, help, Nikolai, help!". I say, how can he help? After all, God helps.

Orthodox priest: Let me tell you a story...

Baptist (from the audience): But you say only reverence, and it turns out that this is already a petition.

Orthodox (speaker): Asks to pray for her...

Baptist (from the audience): That's exactly what they ask for differently.

Orthodox (speaker): I have just said three times that we ask him to pray for me.

Baptist (from the audience): That's what you said. The other is different. A thousand people, and they said everything differently. This is a teaching. But the reality is different.

Orthodox priest: Andrew, may I say? I will tell you a story when a person did not pray to Nicholas, but simply received help from him. I know the story secondhand, from the lips of the priest who received this man who survived. Can I tell you? So the story goes like this. A man was driving on a highway somewhere near the city of Rostov Veliky, many years ago. And it skidded. And then he was driving fast in his car, lost control, and then he was carried out, and he flies.

He flies in front of a tree and must crash into this tree. And here he sees in the area of the tree in which he flies there is a man, an old man… And somehow it turned out wonderfully, incredibly perfect, instead of the tree into which he flew, he flies out into a snowdrift, which is on the other side. Also, the car is still intact. He got out of the car, they pulled him out, and here he goes to this city of Rostov the Great, and looks, there are crosses, a temple, he stopped there.

He goes there, then, to the temple in the monastery, looks, the first icon standing there is the same old man who was on the way of his flight.

Baptist (pastor): Well, that's...

Orthodox priest: I haven't finished yet. The icon was of St. Nicholas the Wonderworker. There was a question about him. So, he understands what's what, well, he bought a candle, put it on, of course, but he understands that God and Nicholas the Wonderworker himself need something more. And then he changed his life. He became a Christian, he went to church, confessed, took communion, radically changed his habits, removed sin from his life, then it turned out after a while that he had cancer. He accepted this illness humbly, and for the rest of his days he lived as a Christian and died.

Please tell us who Nicholas the Wonderworker is, who, in his opinion, appeared, he did not see him, and he should have died. This saint, did he appear to him just like that, or was it a hallucination, or did God call him to salvation through Nikola?

Baptist (from the audience): You should ask him that.

Orthodox priest: He's already dead...

Baptist (from the audience): But you still apply, maybe he will answer you...

Orthodox priest: But he undoubtedly believed that Nicholas the Wonderworker was accurate, he did not know his icon, he was a completely non-ecclesiastical person. He definitely appeared to him, and saved him so that he would change, which is exactly what happened.

Baptist Pastor: So I think that this mysticism is more like the appearance of demons than the Holy Spirit.

Orthodox priest: That is, the person for this purpose lived in grave sins, and this is good.

Baptist Pastor: God doesn't send these saints, if necessary, He sends Angels.

Baptist (from the audience): But the changes should be fruit-based.

Orthodox (from the audience): And Samuel to Saul...

Orthodox (speaker): Did He send Philip to Gaza as a eunuch? Miraculously?

Baptist Pastor: They were alive, weren't they? The same dead people. Nicholas the Wonderworker has long since died.

Orthodox (speaker): But he's alive.

Orthodox priest: Do you think that not everyone is alive with God?

Baptist (from the audience): And who are all these people?

Orthodox priest: That's all.

Baptist (from the audience): That is, it turns out, in your opinion, in general, any person dying, he is alive with God.

Orthodox (speaker): Well, of course. This is what the Bible says.

Orthodox (from the audience): Don't you think so?

Baptist (from the audience): And as it is written about eternity-some will die, and others...

Orthodox (speaker): There will be ... there will be...

Orthodox priest: Do you believe in the destruction of sinners?

Baptist (from the audience): And now it turns out, and sinners with God...

Orthodox priest: They exist, but not with God, they are in hell. As in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus… The rich man is in hell. It exists, but it's in hell.

Baptist (from the audience): I see, I understood then. We have misunderstandings on various issues. You understand it that way, but we are simply different.

Orthodox (speaker): Let's now touch on the temptation, I wanted to say.

Baptist (from the audience): But what about the dead? They were alive, but they were dead. They are dead to God. That's the difference.

Baptist Pastor: Eugene, I do not believe that St. Nicholas the Saint, or the Wonderworker, or other saints, that they are in heaven now have the same bodies in which they lived on earth.

Orthodox priest: They don't have bodies.

Baptist Pastor: If they do not have bodies, they cannot appear to people in material form. And if they do, they are demons. Because they are spiritual beings that are invisible to humans.

Orthodox priest: Do angels have material bodies?

Baptist Pastor: Angels have spiritual bodies.

Orthodox priest: Do angels have material bodies?

Baptist Pastor: I do not know, I have not seen them.

Orthodox priest: Absolutely not, they are spiritual beings. Angels are pure spirits. The Apostle Paul, the epistle to the Hebrews, writes about this. So, this is pure perfume. Minds, fire, a flaming mind. They do not have physical bodies, but they appear to people, taking the form of a person in order to make it easier for us to see them and communicate with them. In the same way as saints, they appear in an external form, but they also appear in spiritual bodies.

Baptist Pastor: Nothing is written about the saints anywhere. The Bible says a lot about angels. About the saints, that they take the form of, well, if only Samuel is there, if you remember Samuel from the Old Testament, and then many interpreters of our Protestant trend believe that it was not Samuel, but that it was a demon who appeared.

Baptist (speaker): Who took the image...

Orthodox (from the audience): Why, then, can a demon assume an image?

Baptist (speaker): Well, the Orthodox presbyter wrote about this...

Orthodox (from the audience): Does he have a body? Does the imp have a body?… This is a fallen angel...

Baptist (from the audience): My good ones… You know we've come a long way. Let's start with the demons, that's all... This should be removed from the agenda altogether.

Baptist (speaker): Well, who strengthened Christ in Gethsemane, who appeared?

Orthodox (speaker): Let's talk about angels later. Let's, in fact, on the report. One question. Please, then from your side. The question, or rather, the answer. Dmitry Igorevich's report repeatedly stated that icons are a temptation for people, that people are not taught, and that this is the reason why icons are not really needed. Do I understand you correctly?"

Baptist (speaker): Not what's right. It is considered...

Orthodox (speaker): I've heard it at least three times.

Baptist (speaker): Not that… I read the position of the creed.

Orthodox (speaker): No, I'll tell you directly. Yes or no? Do you think this reason is justified against icons?

Baptist (speaker): Well, to some extent, of course, this is a temptation. People are more foggy about spiritual worship. Here are evangelical Christians, they perceive...

Orthodox (speaker): Well, look, let's do it according to the word of God...

Baptist (speaker): ... honoring images. Honoring images or something else... Reverence, but not spiritual worship. Now I'll tell you a little more. The Lord wants to be the only object of worship in the prayer service. God does not want people to worship the creation instead of giving all the glory to the Creator.

Without rejecting the aesthetic, artistic, and Christian value of painting, we find no justification for censing and kissing... Well, a kiss... okay, if you like, lighting candles, praying in front of them, set in honor of the holidays. An untenable statement of the psychological necessity of an image for prayer. The ability to pray to God without using images is proven by the experience of both early Christians and modern evangelical believers.

Even the Psalmist David beheld the image of God with spiritual eyes. There are no grounds for special prayerful veneration of icons, crosses, or any other images, since such a practice is not prescribed in the Russian Orthodox Church.The Holy Scriptures.

Orthodox priest: Excellent. Here we read in the book of Revelation that God should be honored, including by burning incense. But the Baptist tradition rejects censing. Don't you think this is a gross contradiction to the Word of God, the Old Testament commandment, and the practice of the ancient Church?

Baptist (speaker): Well, I don't know... look, after all, there was a temple service, you're kind of continuing the temple service... But when the temple...

Orthodox priest: Do you have a temple?

Baptist (speaker): Here. We have a synagogue...

Orthodox priest: Right. I'm glad you understand. You have a synagogue, we have a temple. The temple grants a person a complete sacrament. The synagogue teaches. Sunday school, actually.

Baptist (speaker): Well, there were also prayers and everything else.

Orthodox priest: Yes...

Baptist (speaker): And Christ is what he said in John 4: 23 that "true worshippers will worship in spirit and in truth" (John 4:23).

Orthodox priest: So where did the apostles go?

Baptist (speaker): The temple wasn't destroyed yet...

Baptist (from the audience): "In every place."

Orthodox priest: That's right.

Baptist (speaker): I agree.

Orthodox priest: But they worshipped in places, see, specially arranged temples, thrones.

Baptist (speaker): Well, of course, it is more pleasant to pray where it has already been consecrated..

Orthodox priest: With thrones!

Baptist (speaker): With thrones. Here a whole other topic pops up – and antimins, and everything else.

Orthodox (speaker): As for the temptations, they just didn't let me finish. Just two words and that's it. That this is not really an argument at all, because even from the Word of God we know that not only icon worship, but the very preaching of Christ is a temptation for Jews. But that doesn't mean we should stop preaching about Christ now.

The Church's teaching about the Trinity is an incredible temptation for Muslims. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to convert them. Moreover, the teaching about the commandment that when you are hit on the right cheek, you should put the left ... For my father, for my father, such a temptation that he simply cannot overcome this gap to become a Christian. He is already ready to accept this and that. But this commandment... this pride, it doesn't let him just… For him, this is the greatest temptation. But that doesn't mean I have to open Matthew 5 and take out this commandment and say, yes, it's okay, it's tempting for some people. No, the Church has preserved the Divine revelation in its entirety from the day of creation, now and forever. And because of human infirmity, or rather, demonic slanders, it is certainly not going to cut off the truth of the Divine teaching. Because if we start cutting something off, then in time we will come to see that the complete...

Orthodox priest: Any heresy is cutting off part of the teaching...

Baptist Pastor: You can continue this topic in one more time, when we come to you again.

Orthodox (speaker): Whatever you say, we agreed...

Baptist Pastor: We did not talk about the holy relics, as it is a deceased person, touching which defiles a person from the Old Testament, where it was abolished, or in some other way said in the Gospel. How touching these relics works and consecrate these relics to the whole church. Without the relics, this throne and this church do not matter at all, in your understanding.

Orthodox priest: Well, not exactly...

Baptist Pastor: Well, that's why, on the contrary, all these relics desecrate both the temple and the person who touches them, and the person also kisses these relics… This is a very serious topic, maybe in another time, because we don't have time today.

Orthodox priest: Yes, yes…Do you suggest venerating saints and relics next time?

Baptist Pastor: Not next time, but next time. When you come to us, we offer, as we agreed. And then we will return to this topic.

Orthodox priest: And next time what?

Baptist Pastor: And next time we haven't discussed it yet ...

Baptist (from the audience): Nikolai Nikolaevich wanted to say something ...

Baptist Pastor: But if today Saint Nicholas doesn't say anything last to us

Baptist (from the audience): Then we brought Nikolai alive...

Another Baptist (from the audience): Dear ones, I would like to take you back to where we started… Well, about icons, images, frescoes. Please tell me who wrote them? Believers or non-believers?

All: - Believers.

Baptist (from the audience): Believers. On the basis of what they wrote?

Orthodox priest: Based on Tradition and the Word of God.

Baptist (from the audience): So, based on the Word of God. That is why the Lord also says in the first chapter of the Gospel of John :" In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things were made by Him, and without Him nothing wasmade." Here, please, people learned about Christ, decided to draw.

Here they will give you a brush and paint, you believers, can you draw? Probably not.

Orthodox priest: I can't, it won't work...

Baptist (from the audience): But even if you are capable, you will put everything that the Lord has put in your heart.

Orthodox priest: Yes.

Baptist (from the audience): Here. Therefore, all these images, they bear the imprint of the spiritual experience of the person who painted it. He put his heart into it, so to speak. So, naturally, there is something like that in this image. But what? It's a mystery. We don't understand everything.

I'll just give you an example. I was once in the Hermitage before I came to believe. And I looked at these paintings, there are so many spiritual themes, these divine paintings of the greatest artists. And when I read the Bible, I found out, and then I thought, oh, how I ever looked at them. I understood everything, everything they wanted to portray. But the Lord did not allow me to be there for a long time.

When I had read the Bible, studied everything, I came and started looking. And what do you think? When I came out, I thought, why am I not happy? Because God revealed more than the artist put into this painting. When we read a word, it is much more complex than that image. You will understand this. Well, if, of course, the icon inspires, thank God for that. But if you touch the Word, it is inexhaustible. How many years do you read ten times, twenty, forty times, and every day a new one opens up? This is God. Although it does not change, we are becoming different.

That's why this dialog is strange here. On the one hand, we all grew up in Russia. Culture. Our country, that you go to the temple, such beauty, reverence. And who did it? These are people who have revered the Holy Scriptures and reflected on the Bible. In this temple, when I was, a long time ago, of course, you go, the whole Bible is painted on the walls.

I go, ah, everything is clear to me, I am happy, but for many people nothing is clear. Here. We should draw a conclusion from this. How do we go further into the Scriptures or not? Absolutely necessary. And Jesus Christ. Well, of course, the artist drew it. We honor him. Naturally, who is drawn to what, who knows what. Saints, here is the iconostasis. I don't even know what it shows. How can I find out? I don't understand. And what I know is precious to me. So, " Search the Scriptures, through them you hope (What has the Lord said?) to have eternal life, they bear witness of me." Here, dear ones.

Thank the Lord that this communion has taken place, that even though we are not in our knowledge of the Scriptures, such a point, but the Lord has given us something spiritual. It is important. Thank you.

Comment: It so happened that the last word was spoken by an elderly Baptist pastor, and everyone listened to him without interrupting, paying due respect to his age. He spoke out of his worldly wisdom and understanding of the Scriptures, and did not blaspheme the Orthodox Church and the veneration that is paid to God through icons in it. He even clearly showed that through icons, believers are encouraged to remember God more often and pray to Him. Perhaps this attitude to icons can become the basis for Baptists to think more deeply about it, and then to understand that God accepts such worship and even desires it, showing this in the history of the Church.