"Sacrament of baptism" - dispute (interview) between Orthodox Christians and Baptists

Participated in the dispute:

On the Orthodox side-Priest Evgeny Veselov, Priest Dimitri Trifonov, Alan Bedoev (speaker) and others.

On the Baptist side-Pastor Sergey Antonovich Didovets (speaker) and others.

* Minimal literary editing was performed to make the text easier to read. Comments by Priest Evgeny Veselov.

Baptist report (Pastor Sergey Antonovich Didovets)

So, our topic today is Epiphany. I will read the Gospel of Matthew. I think this is a well-known text for you. I've known him by heart since I was about sixteen, I guess. Chapter 28, verses 18 to 20. And Jesus drew near and said to them, " All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.

First, I would like to remind you what the very word "baptism"means. In Greek, you know that the Gospel was written in Greek, where we have the word "baptism" or "baptize", in Greek the word "baptizo" is used there. The English word is similar to "baptize", and it means"immersion" in translation. This word is not alien even to secular people, and they say, for example, this person received a baptism of fire. This means that he has plunged into the thick of the battle. There is the baptism of fire, the baptism of suffering, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and even the baptism of water.

When Christ spoke these words to his disciples, he was, of course, referring to water baptism. The baptism with which he was baptized when he was 30 years old, from John the Baptist, and the baptism that the apostles then practiced during the life of Christ, and even more so after receiving the Holy Spirit, when they had already spread throughout the Roman Empire, they baptized with water.

And this baptism, of course, has a very deep meaning. Is it important to be baptized? People today ask, and even our people who go to church, some say, well, I already read the Bible, I pray, I believe, and you call, come on, take the next step, be baptized. So I'll go to church, but I'll wait until after my baptism. I'll put it off for a year, maybe two more. And we say to these people: of course, it's not bad that you are so slow with baptism, but do not forget that baptism is not a human invention, it is not an initiative on the part of a person, it is a commandment of Jesus Christ. And not only in this Gospel, but also in the Gospel of Mark it is written, we will read this text a little later. Christ commanded the apostles to baptize people.

And since baptism is a commandment of Jesus Christ, so a person who does not want to be baptized, he is consciously ready to violate what the Master has bequeathed. And a person calls himself a Christian, that is, a disciple or follower of Jesus Christ, and at the same time he says, I will not do what my Teacher tells me, this should not happen. That is probably why you and we are calling on people to be baptized, not to baptize themselves, but to be baptized by someone else, and we will also talk about this a little later.

What should precede baptism? There are some specific texts in the Gospel that say that not everyone can be baptized. We must first prepare the person. Of course, we believe that the best mentor who prepares a person for baptism is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth, the Holy Spirit will reprove you, the Holy Spirit will lead you to repentance, but he does this through other believers, through his church, which is his body. Therefore, it means that not only the Holy Spirit, but also we, believers, should instruct each other.

And so that, then, must precede baptism. Who do we baptize in our church and who do we not baptize? If a person comes to worship twice, listens to something, or prays once, and they say: "Such a good society is here, I want to join you." And we say, " You will become a member of our society only after your baptism." For in the Acts of the Apostle it is written: "And they that received his word so willingly were baptized, and about three thousand souls were added that day." 2: 41), that is, it explicitly states that joining the church takes place through holy water baptism. And we also explain that you will become one of us, a member of our church, only after your baptism. I am ready to be baptized, they say, just as the eunuch once said: "Here is water, what hinders me from being baptized?" (Acts 8: 36). And we explain to these people that you should be ready to do it.

There are three points that I would like to draw your attention to.

First, a person must be taught. We have already read this text. "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations" (Matthew 28:19). And then baptize them. How can a person be baptized if he doesn't even know what baptism is, what will happen to him at this moment? So you need to teach it first. And what do you need to teach? It is necessary not to teach any dogmas or decrees of our church, and even more so some false religion, but to teach what God says. What Jesus Christ brought us. If we are Christians, then we must teach this person the Gospel, that is, the teachings of Jesus Christ, and convey the truth to them.

And these people must accept the Word of God. Well, as I've already quoted this text from Acts 2. "And so those who willingly received His Word were baptized." 2:41). A person needs to hear the Word of God, and for this you need to go to preach. For this purpose, God sends preachers. "How can you believe if you don't hear? How can you hear without a preacher? " (Rom. 10: 14) Romans 10, you know that. Therefore, it is necessary to teach a person. And you don't need to teach him the whole Bible, but you need to teach him the most important thing. It is the question of saving his own soul. The question of a living relationship with God. That is, we teach a person, not starting from Genesis, there, from the creation of the world, but we teach from the New Testament, we tell about Christ.

As Paul says, I went all over the Roman Empire, came to you at Corinth, and "judged that I should know nothing among you but Jesus Christ, and that he was crucified." (1 Corinthians 2: 2). First of all, it is necessary to convey to each person the crucified Christ. This is the core of the Gospel, and of the entire Bible, and it is absolutely true.

If a person understands that Christ, who is dying on the cross, is his personal Savior, and puts his whole heart in Him, then this is already enough for the Holy Spirit to work in this heart, for faith to be born, for a person to become a believer from an unbeliever.

Therefore, if we have taught him that Christ is his Savior, so that he believes in the sacrifice of Christ, and that he needs not only to believe, but also to repent, and then to tell a little more about baptism-this is the first thing that a person needs to be taught.

Second, there must be a response from this person. So, will the heart be closed or open? If a person's heart is closed, then there is no faith. In my understanding, what is faith? Faith is the door of the heart. Well, the spiritual heart, of course, you understand, the heart is the whole spiritual life. And there are doors, of course. These doors can be closed, they can be opened. Christ says, " I stand and knock on these doors "(Revelation 3: 20). Yes? Those people who open the doors of their hearts, it means that they begin to believe in Jesus Christ, to agree with Him.

Therefore, faith is the opening of the doors of our hearts to the Lord. But I think that you know from your own life, you have seen such people who at first listen, do not accept anything, do not agree. Then they begin to absorb something, to agree with something. And then, after a while, they want to listen to everything that is said to them, and they start reading the Bible themselves, and they accept every word that is written in the Bible as God's word. When a person agrees with every word written in the Bible and says, " This is God speaking to me,"then that person has serious faith. It is written that "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." (Rom. 10: 17)

Therefore, a person must respond to the truth that he has heard. He must believe it. And this is the second point. First, the person must be taught. Second, he must believe in Jesus Christ or accept by faith the truth that he has heard. And this is what Christ says: "Go and preach the gospel to every creature. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved "(Mark 16: 15-16).

Who will believe? When the Eunuch asked Philip, Philip told him not only, probably, about the sacrifice of Christ, but also about baptism. When the eunuch said, "This is the water that hinders me from being baptized" (Acts 8: 36), there was only one condition – Philip replied, "If you believe with all your heart, you can" (Acts 8:37). And if you don't believe from the bottom of your heart? We say here ," Then you can't." I do not know about you, but this is one thing that follows from the other. If you believe wholeheartedly that Jesus is the Messiah that Isaiah spoke of in Chapter 53… And they probably went through this chapter in detail, and Philip clearly showed this Eunuch that you need to rely on the sacrifice of Christ. Now, if you believe with all your heart, you can. Therefore, we do not baptize people who say that they know the Gospel, the Bible, but doubt, for example, the Divinity of Christ. If we reject one of the most important doctrines concerning the Holy Trinity, or especially Jesus Christ, we do not baptize such people. We do not baptize people who believe in the Holy Trinity, recognize the inspiration of Scripture, but do not believe that Christ died for them personally. They say, Oh, Christ died for all. It's good that you died for everyone, but do you believe that Christ died for you personally?

Comment: Baptists fail to understand that Christ died for the Church because He is the Church's Bridegroom: "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the Church and gave himself up for her "(Eph. 5: 25)." Christ is the head of the Church and the Savior of the body " (Eph.5: 23). Nowhere in the Bible is there a call to believe that Christ died for me personally. Therefore, people are not saved individually, but only as part of the Church: "But the Lord added daily those who were saved to the Church" (Acts 2:47). Therefore, their claim to the Orthodox that we are supposedly unregenerate people is a claim to a different, non-ecclesiastical reading of the Bible. This is a claim to the fact that we do not have the same non-ecclesiastical spirit of individualism that they have. Ultimately, this is a claim that we are under the Head of Christ, and they are free, they are outside this Head, but each on his own. This is the tragedy of Baptism and Protestantism in general.

If a person says :" I doubt it, I do not know, but what did He think about me 2000 years ago, when I was still in the embryo was not" and so on… He was thinking about you, that's how we explain it. Because David also said that everything is predestined with God. So we baptize a person who says, I believe personally, that God is my Father and Jesus Christ is my Savior. And I don't have any doubts. This is the second point.

And the third point that should precede baptism is repentance. I heard, believed, that is, I opened the doors of my heart, let the truth in here so that it could work here. And then there should be a response. Well, there is already the truth working, the light of God, the Holy Spirit working, but there are still the sins that you have accumulated during your life, right? They are like a heavy burden on your conscience. They defile you, burden your life. What should I do with my sins? And a person understands that Christ has already taken my sins upon himself, He crucified them on the cross. And not only my sins, but he has already crucified me, my old man. This is like a fait accompli, and in order for this objective truth to become subjective in your life, what must you do? You must confess your sin. Repentance, this is confession, this is, of course, a change of mind, this is a 180-degree turn, we understand all this, but at the same time we need to pray, right?

Take this sin, well, what does it mean to confess the word? It means telling from the inside out. I took this sin that you kept there for a long time, loved, cherished, and now you are sick of it, and you have to vomit it out of yourself. As a person receives poisoning of the body from poor-quality food, and the person understands that now this sin is like this poisoning inside me, I must take it all and confess it, that is, give it to the Lord. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). This repentance, this change of mind, the decision to come out of the darkness, to come to God-it ends with a prayer of repentance. That is, it is the confession of all sins. When the man has done these three things – the man has heard the truth, the man has believed the truth, the man has repented - then we can say the same thing that Philip said to the Eunuch: "If you believe with all your heart, you may be baptized" (Acts 8:37).

But what is the meaning of baptism, what is the meaning of baptism? We've already talked a little bit about the word itself, and now let's talk about the meaning. When I was preparing for this meeting today, I thought first of telling you what baptism is not in our understanding, in the Baptist world.…But I think it will be a long time – that baptism is not protection from demons, it is not protection from accidents, and so on… That it is not the washing away of sins, well, because it is written, "not the washing away of the uncleanness of the flesh" (1 Peter 3: 21), but I decided that I would tell you what baptism means, as I understand it in the gospel, and then we will draw a conclusion. So I conclude that everything else is not baptism.

Baptism has two meanings. The first is "a promise to the Lord of a good conscience" (1 Peter 3: 21), more simply called a covenant with God or a covenant with Christ. In the Old Testament, the Israelites made a covenant through Moses and the commandments that Moses brought from the mountain, and in the New Testament, Christ himself, that is, the Son of God, is more than Moses, came to earth. This is why God sent his Son to make a New Covenant with people through Him. You know that the second part of the Bible is called that. The first part – the Old Testament-is with the Israelites, and the second part – the New Testament, that is, with all who believe in Jesus Christ. Through Christ, we can make this covenant with God.

That's why baptism is the conclusion of a covenant with God or with Christ. Simply put, it's a wedding. When I prepare people for baptism, I always explain to them and tell them that this is how two people met and have been dating for some time. They are not husband and wife, they want to be together. And they may even commit adultery and sleep in the same bed, but if they haven't gone to the registry office and signed their names, they're nothing to each other. They are simply adulterers. Even our state does not recognize civil marriages, much less the Church. Therefore, it is necessary to legitimize your relationship. And when you go to the registry office, and if they are Christians, then after the registry office they also go to church for a wedding or, as we call it, a wedding, you get a double promise. Once in the registry office each other promise loyalty, and then these promises are confirmed by a signature. And then they go to church, and here we pastors, when we give instructions, we then ask the question: do you promise to fulfill your duties to your husband, to be faithful to your wife to the end? And then we ask them if you promise, and when they say it solemnly, they sort of sign it. There on paper, and here spiritual signatures in the church. And then, from this moment on, we recognize and declare that these two have become one flesh, they are husband and wife.

So Christ came not only to marry us, but also to sign our names in the end. And I even understand that this kind of engagement and painting, they happen on earth. The wedding has already taken place, and in heaven in Revelation, there in chapter 21 it is written, there will only be a wedding feast.

How do we have a wedding, for example? First the spiritual part, the pastor's instruction, then the prayers, everyone prays, first the bride and groom, then the minister lays hands on them, prays, blesses. Then they'll take a break, they'll go and take pictures, and then they'll get together, and we'll hold a wedding party right here, set the tables, everything is set up here with tables, and we'll hold a wedding feast here. Congratulations, instructions, there are wishes, money, who will give and so on. Now, I understand that even now people are entering into a relationship with Christ, in this covenant, not only the engagement is announced, but also signed here. And this painting on the part of a person takes place at the time of baptism, and a wedding feast will simply take place in heaven.

Therefore, for a contract to be valid, it must be signed on both sides. For his part, Jesus Christ, desiring to have such a close relationship with us, signed this contract in his own blood. And this is written in the three Gospels. When Christ took the cup after supper, blessed it and said, " Take it, this cup is the new testament in My blood." In my understanding, He confirmed this and said that this new testament is signed with My blood. I am now going to Calvary to die for you, I will shed my blood, and with this blood I sign that I want to be in a relationship with you. And a person, for his part, not even at the moment of repentance, but at the moment of baptism, he promises loyalty to the Lord, promises a good conscience. But a good conscience does not mean that it promises to be perfect and never sin, and does not accumulate sins.

Concerning the promise of a good conscience to God, the Apostle Peter writes (1 Peter 3: 21): "Even so we are now being baptized in the likeness of this image, not washing away the uncleanness of the flesh, but the promise of a good conscience to God saves us through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." Here I briefly explained how I understand what baptism is – it is the conclusion of a covenant with Christ, a painting on the part of a person.

And the second meaning is in the Epistle to the Romans in the sixth chapter, where from the first to the sixth verse it says about death with Christ, about resurrection with Christ, and there is a fourth verse there. It says, " So we were buried with him by baptism into death "(Rom 6: 4). That is, baptism is the funeral of an old life. It is not at this moment that a person dies to the old life, to sin, to himself, to Satan. And it is not at this moment that he is resurrected. This happens in repentance, when a person is born again. And at the moment of baptism, he buries the old life.

Well, there's a big difference between death and burial, right? A man died in a car, and they are already burying him in the cemetery. Usually, two to three days pass from death to funeral. Why don't they take longer? Because the body starts to decompose. Why they don't bury faster (although some people bury faster, for example, Muslims, if a person died in the morning, they should bury him in the evening).

And we need some time, two or three days, to be able to prepare, inform people, and hold the funeral with dignity. Death comes earlier, and burial is a little later. Now, baptism is not the death of the old life and the resurrection of the new, but baptism is burial. And we literally understand it that way. Baptism is immersion in water. If it's a water baptism. So we go to the river or put up a swimming pool, and we have to bury the person. We bury him once. Unfortunately, even in our fraternity there are such free-thinking, probably believers, who do not exactly sin, but introduce some innovations. And they baptize a person three times.

We usually hold baptisms in Kostroma. And this year, unfortunately, we did not have a baptism. But next year we have a few souls who did not dare to be baptized this year, and I think we will probably invite you to see how it all happens. Just like John baptized Jesus Christ. That is, we go into the river and baptize with full immersion. Because otherwise this word will lose its meaning. If we don't submerge him in water, we won't baptize him.

If you sprinkled it, then, in my understanding, you did not baptize it, but sprinkled it. And immersion means that you need to bury a person. When we bury them, we don't just put earth on top of them? And we lower it into the grave, at a height of one meter and eighty. Somewhere in the sand, maybe twenty meters is enough. We have such a practice. And some, sometimes, baptize, dip once, in the name of the Father and raise. Because Christ said that we should baptize on the Holy Trinity, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Then they say, in the name of the Son and again dip, lift. And in the name of the Holy Spirit. We don't baptize like that. Why? Because a person doesn't need to be buried three times. I have never seen a person's coffin lowered into the grave, lifted, then lowered again, and this was done three times. Well, maybe somewhere in some other nations it is. Therefore, once a person needs to be buried, completely hidden under water, lifted up, and by this we have already demonstrated that we have buried this person. The old man is dead, now he is buried, now he is a new man, living for Christ. All.

One last thought. Baptism is not a means of being born again. That time when we were talking about being born again, we didn't have enough time. John 3, Christ's conversation with Nicodemus: "Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5). There are rules of hermeneutics, rules of interpretation of any text – not only the Bible, but also any secular text, which are not invented by people. They are established by God, but they are simply revealed by people, as many laws are revealed. And so hermeneutics can be applied to any text. So one of the rules of hermeneutics says that you can not build a doctrine or dogma, or, even more so, theology on a single text in the Bible. If there is only one text, this is not enough.

Thus, even in the Old Testament, it is said that with two or three witnesses, every work will take place (Deut. 19: 15), we try to stick to it. Christ only said this here: "He who is not born of water and the Spirit" (John 3:5). And if we read this text and say, well, water probably means baptism, because Christ bequeathed us to be baptized, and so on.

But, first of all, this is still a remark: how can earthly material things be applied to spiritual things? When we speak of being born again, it is the birth of our spirit, the inner man. With the rebirth of the spirit, we can say that the soul also blooms. If the spirit is dead, then the soul is trapped, it is in bondage. And if the spirit is regenerated by the Holy Spirit, it means that the Holy Spirit has united with our spirit into one. This is being born again. Then the soul blooms. So, how can we use the water of a river or a pool, or water in a temple, and how can we apply it to the revival of our spirit?

It doesn't fit in my mind at all. That is, the spiritual must be combined with the spiritual. And when Christ says that "you must be born of water and the Spirit", He meant the Spirit, we are not arguing here, we all understand that this is the Holy Spirit. And by water, He meant some kind of spiritual component.

And if we open the Gospel and read it, I will tell you only three texts that speak about being born again. Two explicitly say that this is a new birth. And there is something that is involved in being born again? Well, first of all, who is involved? This is the Holy Spirit. And water is also involved in being born again.

And other texts directly answer what is this water. So, the epistle of James (James 1: 18): "He was willing, and begot us with the word of truth."

There Christ did not say that one must be born of the Word of Truth. But from the water and the Spirit. And here it is clarified: the Holy Spirit remains, that is, It is present in the new birth, because it is written in the epistle of Titus - "by the washing of regeneration and renewal with the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5). There are no questions there. It says here that God begets us by His Word. "Willing, He begat us by the word of truth."

And in the first epistle of Peter (1 Peter 1: 23), Peter says, " As being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the living and abiding Word of God for ever." Again, regeneration will take place through the influence of God's Word. Then there's the epistle to the Ephesians, which talks about the church, how Christ works in the church, "having cleansed it (the church) with the washing of water through the word" (Ephesians 5:26).

Here is the " bath of regeneration, renewal by the Holy Spirit "(Titus 3: 5), and here is the bath. "Having cleansed the bath of water by the Word" (Ephesians 5: 26). It turns out that there are three texts that say that the Word of God is directly involved in the rebirth of man. And so I understand that when Christ spoke to Nicodemus, what is meant by water is God's Word.

Thanks for your attention!

Report of the Orthodox (Alan Bedoev)

In principle, there will be the same texts, but in the church interpretation. Speaking of baptism, it is important to note that the prophecy of New Testament baptism was given to mankind in the Old Testament.

We remember that Ezekiel, moved by the Holy Spirit, left us the following text:"I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be cleansed from all your filth, and I will give you a new heart and a new Spirit." (Ezek. 36: 25-28).

According to the teaching of the One Catholic Apostolic Church, baptism is a sacrament in which a person who is baptized by thrice immersion in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit dies to a life of sin and carnal life, is cleansed from all his sins, and is regenerated from the Holy Spirit to a life of righteousness and holiness.

The divine establishment of this sacrament is obvious. Yes, we have no disagreements here. The Lord, as you correctly noted, said to the Apostles after His resurrection: "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19).

The Church calls baptism a sacrament, and not just a rite, because through an external sacrament, the invisible but effective grace of the Holy Spirit is given to the baptized person, which drowns all sin and all defilement in a person.

Now theses. First, the Church teaches that it is at baptism, and not before, that a person's sins are forgiven. That is why the Apostle Peter said to the believing Jews, " Repent, and let every one of you be baptized...(for what?) for the remission of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." 2:28). And so the Church considered this text so important that it even included it in the Nicene-Tsargrad Creed, which is formally recognized by most neo-Protestant organizations. I don't know about you, but almost everywhere the Symbol of Faith is read just before communion in the Lord's Supper.

This text also gives us a certain sequence, which is later traced in other texts of Holy Scripture.

Peter says: first comes repentance – " repent." Then comes baptism – " Let every one of you be baptized for the remission of sins." And the third is receiving the Holy Spirit. The most striking illustration of the fact that sins are forgiven in baptism, and not in repentance, is, of course, the story of Paul's conversion. We know that Paul, once Saul, at a certain historical moment in his life was a sinful man and even a God-fighter. The Book of Acts tells us that this man was going to Damascus for a specific purpose in order to capture Christians and lead them to judgment.

On the way, this person experiences a strong spiritual and emotional shock. He meets Christ. Meets Christ personally. He can even hear his voice. He understands that this is the Lord Jesus Christ and even says to him, " Lord! what will you command me to do?" (Acts 9: 6)

The same book goes on to tell us that Paul was in great contrition of heart, in repentance for three days. It says that he didn't even eat or drink anything. That is, few of us have repented so much.

God, who is above time and space, knowing Paul's condition and what repentance he is in, sends Ananias to him, who comes and says to him these words: "Saul, Saul, why do you delay? Be baptized!" And here the question is, why? Ananias replies, " and wash away your sins." 22:16). That is, in this text, as in the text (Acts 1: 16). 2:28), we see that the forgiveness of sins takes place precisely in baptism, not in repentance. Otherwise, the meaning of this text, the meaning of Ananias ' actions, which was sent by the Lord himself, is simply lost.

Here are the Baptists, at least, with whom I spoke, they, contrary to the Word of God, distorted this principle and teach something like this: first repent for the forgiveness of sins, then receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, and then, the third stage – be baptized not for the forgiveness of sins. That is, we see that this is a clear distortion of the Word of God. And this is a common principle of all neo-Protestant organizations.

Sergey Anatolyevich said that " we believe that baptism does not purify sins." Elsewhere we read about the purifying function of baptism, Ephesians 5: 26, "to sanctify it by cleansing it with the washing of water by the word;" this text has already been mentioned. As you know, the main component of baths in ancient times were fonts. Anyone who has ever had a glimpse of the history of the church, at least once in their life, knows that baptism in apostolic times, in the first century, the second, third and so on, was always called the font of rebirth, the bath of rebirth.

Obviously, it is about baptism that we are talking about here. But now you have noticed exactly the second part of the verse, that it is written that the church is cleansed by the " word." We admit, yes, this is exactly what it is.

It is absolutely true that the" word " in baptism is necessary. That is, we use the wording that the Lord himself left us: "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." There was one such brother in Christ, St. Augustine, who said, " What is baptism? This is water with the invocation of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Take away the words – there is no baptism. Take away the water – there is no baptism."

Secondly, this text should be understood in the sense of an evangelical sermon. Again, you have clearly noticed that Paul once said, " How can we believe in one of whom we have not heard? How can you hear without a preacher? How can they preach if they are not sent? " (Rom. 10: 14-15).

In the same way, you can say how to be baptized, about whom you did not hear, did not believe, and so on. The word of God is necessary for faith to be born in a person. It really gives birth to faith, which later encourages a person to fulfill the commandments, including, of course, the commandment about baptism. So we recognize that yes, the word is necessary, but that doesn't mean that baptism isn't necessary for salvation. The word of God gives birth to faith. Faith encourages a person to keep the commandments.

The second aspect is that baptism saves, that is, it is an integral part in the work of salvation, and therefore it is necessary for all people, regardless of race, gender or age. This is the age, I emphasize, because you noted that you do not baptize children. But we will discuss this further.

The Lord, in his conversation with Nicodemus, said the words that you have already mentioned today. The words are very categorical, and due to their radical nature, they are often rejected by Protestants. "He who is not born of water and the Spirit cannot enter the kingdom of heaven" (John 3:5).

What exactly is the point, what is the point? We all know that the book of Genesis tells us about how the original man fell away from God, breaking his commandment. As a result, man lost the grace that literally permeated his nature, kept it alive. And as we know that "a holy place is never empty," sin has entered into human nature. In this regard, there was a complete perturbation in human nature. The mind has lost almost all control over the will and feelings. The lower soul forces, such as the senses, began to prevail over the spiritual ones. And man simply became guided by the flesh, he became passionate, he became mortal, he became sick. And this condition, which ultimately leads a person to death and plunges his soul into hell, is now called "original sin".

It has spread to all people. In the fifth chapter of Genesis, we already read that Adam begot a son in his own image and likeness. Well, that is, in the image and likeness of a sinful person. The same book of Genesis tells us that "the thought of a man's heart is evil from his youth" (Gen. 8: 21). We remember the bitter words of the righteous Job, who said, " Who can be born clean of the unclean?" – he answers it himself: "not one" (Job 14: 4). We remember the words of the Apostle Paul (Rom. 5: 12): "As sin entered into the world through one man, and death with sin, so death passed on to all men." And in children, and in grandmothers, and in Papuans. In all people. "For in him all have sinned."

The man was doomed to perish. He became guilty before God. And a "child of wrath," as Ephesians 2:3 tells us. Already after the fact of his birth.

The loving God, seeing all this, did not abandon his creation. He bowed the heavens, descended. Being a Judge, he put himself on trial. Being the Source of all life, He suffered death. Being the Word, the Logos, He was forced to be silent on the cross. In order to "save and recover the lost" (Matthew 18: 11), as He himself says.

And here a question arises for every believer. And how can we share in his redemptive fruits, in the fruits of his redemptive sacrifice? He died for us, redeemed us, but how can we be partakers of it? Scripture teaches us that the Lord created the Church for this purpose. "Christ is the head of the Church," Ephesians tells us, and " He is the Saviour of the Body "(Ephesians 5: 23). Here it is important that the report said that God is my personal Savior. Scripture says He is the Savior of the Body, not of every single individual. Bodies, so Churches. Which is the image of the New Ark, without which there is no salvation. And which has clear boundaries. Through Baptism, we enter the bosom of the Church, for "you were all baptized into one body by one Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:13), the apostle Paul tells us. That is, through Baptism we became partakers of His Body, of His Church: "All of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Galatians 3: 27). And how can one be saved without putting on Christ? No way. A person is saved by becoming a partaker of His Body. If this putting on of Christ takes place precisely in Baptism, then Baptism is therefore an integral part in the work of salvation.

That's why we teach it to everyone. I will repeat this frequently to help you understand it better. "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:16). Again, we see that salvation requires not only faith, but also Baptism. The text of Titus, which has already been cited (Tit. 3:5): "He saved us not by the works of righteousness that we had done, but by His mercy." The question is, how? "the bath (i.e., the font) of birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." Therefore, the Church claims that Baptism is necessary for everyone. Baptism cleanses from all sins. Baptism is the way, the door to the Church. And so we teach it to all people.

The performers of the sacraments of Baptism and other sacraments are the apostles and their successors . Once again, we must return to the question of belonging to the historical Church. The Lord commanded that his apostles and his successors should go forth to preach and baptize all nations. And it is the pastors of the Church who should baptize, who have a direct apostolic succession going back to the apostles. This proves their hierarchical right to perform these sacraments.

In general, any doctrinal provision, be it the Eucharist (communion), baptism, chrismation, confession, etc., cannot be considered outside the ecclesiological context. That is, the Lord founded a Church that has sacraments, which has clear boundaries, and it is in this Church that all this happens. "Church" means one, not churches, as we said last time. And we are very sad that, unfortunately, while you are out of this Church. And we invite you to join it.

Discussion of reports

):Evgeny VeselovOrthodox priest (priest To make it clearer to us, here we need to understand how God works. God is not a man to act like you or like me. If I want to touch someone, say, I have to do it with my hand or foot, but I won't touch the whole body. God, He is higher than I am, and so He acts naturally more powerful than I do. And the grace of God, that is, the uncreated power of God, does not penetrate to one particular point, but it penetrates as God himself sees fit.

"The spirit breathes where it pleases" (John 3:8). Therefore, this grace of God, as you rightly said, depends on our free will, on our desire. And this desire, our faith, is one of the conditions for invoking the grace of God. Seeing our faith and our actions connected with faith, in particular, that we come to be baptized, the priest baptizes a person, God sends His Spirit. And this Spirit of God invisibly descends on the water, descends on the person being baptized, and It is taught not through the hand, not through the eye, not through the foot, but to the whole body and soul of a person at once. But invisible. At the same time, there are many cases when a newly baptized person receives some special gifts. For example, Saint John of Kronstadt, when he was born, was a very frail child, and his parents despaired of his life. A priest was invited to baptize immediately, on the same day. This is not the way we do it. Usually there is the eighth, fortieth day or even later. But since the child was near death, the priest was called, and he immediately baptized the baby. The child survived and then lived quite a long life. That is, we see that through the operation of the sacrament of baptism, the Holy Spirit has strengthened us.John of Kronstadt and mentally, of course, it is visible in his life, but also physically. There are many such cases.

Baptist Pastor: Yes, I understand your point, but I can't agree yet. Thank you. I understood the answer.

Orthodox (speaker): - And how do you interpret the text that you have repeatedly quoted – "Repent and be baptized every one of you for the remission of sins" (Acts 1: 16)? 2:38).

Baptist Pastor: Well, I always say, let's see how it's written in Greek.

Orthodox: - Come on.

Baptist: - We read. "And Peter saith unto them, Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (lowercase translation from Greek. Acts II. 2:38)

Orthodox (speaker): - What's the difference? The main thing is that baptism, it gives forgiveness of sins. "In" forgiveness of sins, as you understand?

Baptist: - Your sins have already been forgiven, and you are being baptized. We have no contradiction. There are no contradictions here, since those who repented were immediately baptized. Therefore, there was both repentance and baptism at once. One did not separate from the other.

We don't have a swimming pool here, for example. Let's say that in a year people turn to God and repent. And with repentance, there are many texts that say "repent for the remission of sins", that is, repentance is a necessary condition, a person asks for forgiveness, he receives forgiveness of sins. And since we only have the opportunity to be baptized in the summer, a person is waiting for his opportunity to be baptized into death.

Why there are no contradictions here, because in the first Apostolic Church, as soon as people believed, they immediately turned to God, they were immediately led to baptism.

So I just don't see any contradictions. But we want to say that it is not the rite of baptism itself that produces the forgiveness of sins, but the fact that a person repents of his sins. Here are the children, yes, they can ask for forgiveness, but not sincerely, you understand that. Even they do not ask for forgiveness yet, you are already kind to them, you are ready to forgive them everything, but it is believed that reconciliation took place between father and son, when the child sincerely repents. That's the point. If you do penance and are immediately baptized in the church, yes, you can.

Orthodox priest: - It seems to me that your everyday examples or from your modern practice, they are secondary to the Holy Scriptures. The Scriptures describe cases where we do not see explicit repentance. Well, for example, the prison guard. Where is repentance? He sees the miracle, sees the faith of the prisoners, hears their word about Christ, and is immediately baptized. The Scriptures don't say a word about repentance. Philip and the Eunuch. The eunuch goes, hears a word from Philip, "Here is water" ... where is repentance? Even when the Apostle Peter preaches his first sermon, he says, "they were moved at heart" (Acts 2: 37) There is no public confession or repentance in the book of Acts. But, however, they come together to baptism.

Therefore, your idea that for a whole year they have been walking, repenting, and worrying, in these three biblical examples (or you can continue them), does not work. Lydia, again, is her home. Well, there is no such repentance. Accepting Christ wholeheartedly is. The desire to become a Christian again is there. There is no repentance as an experience of one's life, public remorse or personal remorse. There is no time interval.

What happens next? And then there is the forgiveness of sins. The forgiveness that you think occurs earlier, before baptism, according to the book of Acts, this forgiveness of sins occurs somewhere, but not in the previous repentance. So, in the baptismal font. And if we read the Epistle to the Romans, chapter 6, as we were already told in the first report, we will see that there baptism is linked to the forgiveness of sins.

Baptist: It is written, " He will convict the world of sin." What sin does the Holy Spirit accuse you of?

Orthodox priest: - You are going far.

Baptist: We're talking about repentance. The man repented of his sins. Right? The most deadly sin. What is the first sin that the Holy Spirit reproves?

Orthodox priest: - Well, you have your own opinion, voice it.

Baptist: - No, not an opinion. It says in chapter 16: "When the Holy Spirit comes, he will reprove the world of sin, because they do not believe in me" (John 16: 8-9).

Orthodox priest: - It doesn't say that this is the first chastisement.

Baptist: "He will convict the world of sin, because they do not believe in Me." This is what Jesus Christ clearly said. Now, what is the first repentance that God accepts? Confession of sins can also take place after repentance, a person goes to a minister, confesses his sins, that is, before God.

But the first thing that happens is that you can't see it, which is why you can't see it with the prison guard, because it's done before God. This is the first time that he now recognizes Jesus Christ as his Savior and repents that he did not believe in Him.

Orthodox priest: - And other sins?

Baptist: - Other sins, this is already a consequence. He repented of his unbelief. And he goes with the confession of sins, as the Lord reproves him, that he smoked, drank, there is something else (it is revealed to the priest, to the minister), but the first repentance that a person must make is to repent that he did not believe in Jesus Christ. If this repentance is not present, then in six months the person will come again to confess the same sins. A year later, he will come to confess the same sins again. In two years, he will come to confess the same sins again.

And when you look at his life, he has nothing to do with Christ. Why? Because the first sin, the most important one, is not confessed. "He doesn't believe in me." I answer the question of why the prison guard does not appear to have repented, but we see in his actions, " Men and brethren, what shall I do?" 16:30). Why? Because his light has penetrated.

Christ said to Paul: "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me" (Acts 9:4). We see that he did not repent or confess his sins there. He prayed for three days, but then he clearly says that he received the reproof that he was going against Christ.

Orthodox priest: – We have a common weak point. I feel it in me, and I see it in you. Since you are a preacher, and I have to preach by status, instead of giving a brief answer, I want to convince you verbally. This is inappropriate.

Baptist: I'm answering the question of why we don't see repentance.

Orthodox priest: - You contradict the Apostle Peter, who says that baptism does not grant remission of the sin of unbelief, but of sins in general. And the Lord promises forgiveness not for the sin of unbelief, but for sins in general. Of course, one must also repent of unbelief; of course, one must overcome unbelief by faith. I'm not arguing with you, you're absolutely right. But baptism forgives all sins. And it revives for new life by the Holy Spirit.

You understand, take the Epistle to the Romans, the sixth chapter. This text is read during epiphany. Because it is he who, according to the Church, is one of the brightest, who teaches what baptism is, in spiritual terms. If we open this text, we will see that baptism is a rebirth. This is a very important thing. When the Lord says that one must be born of water and the Spirit, it is a birth. Because Nicodemus compares it with a carnal birth, but the Lord speaks of a spiritual birth.

And in the same text, you say no other texts, not true, here is the text…

Baptist Pastor: – Read it…

Orthodox priest: - So we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. For if we are united to Him in the likeness of His death, we must also be united in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, so that the body of sin might be abolished, so that we might no longer be slaves to sin; for he who died was freed from sin. (Romans 6: 4-7).

Baptist Pastor: - Where is the word "rebirth" or "new birth" here?

Orthodox priest: - I'm surprised. Let's read some more. This shows that we are dead to sin together with Christ, but if we are dead, then we must live in Christ. Do we have life or not? Renewed life. This is the very birth in Christ that occurs in baptism, and not anything else.

Baptist Pastor: - There is not a single word about rebirth here.

Orthodox priest: One more time. Do you agree (according to the Apostle) that we die with Christ in baptism?

Baptist Pastor: No. I believe that we are dying for an old life of repentance.

Orthodox priest: - Not in baptism?

Baptist: - The moment of repentance is death for the old life, for sin, for oneself, for Satan and resurrection from the dead, at the moment of repentance occurs.

Orthodox priest: But the apostle says, " So we were buried with Him by baptism into death." Not by repentance, but by baptism.

Baptist Pastor: "We are buried," it's a funeral, I've already said that. The fact that we are buried in death is a confirmation of the fact that we are already in this state.

Orthodox priest: - I don't even know what to say here, because this text is entirely about baptism… But let's go a little earlier. The third verse. "Do you not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death" (Romans 6:3)? Wrong again?

Baptist Pastor: - This can be applied here not to water baptism. And those who are immersed in Christ Jesus… This happens during repentance.

Orthodox priest: - No, they were baptized. The word baptism is unambiguous in the text.

Baptist Pastor: No. The very word "baptism"...

Orthodox priest: - Why not? You yourself used it precisely as referring to water baptism. Is not it so?

Baptist Pastor: – We baptize people in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in the name of Jesus Christ we baptize, but in this text, if you examine it more deeply, there are two baptisms here.

One who is baptized into Christ Jesus is one who has entered into Christ, and this is happening... In my opinion, this happens at the moment of repentance, at the moment of being born again. And the person who was baptized into Christ Jesus, he must go, perform a water baptism, bury the old life. I explained that this is not a death and resurrection, but a funeral of the old life. A dead man, he must be buried. In water baptism-spiritual baptism, this is immersion in Christ Jesus, with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, it occurs with repentance.

Comment: Very characteristic dialogue. To understand the absurdity of the Baptists 'position, we can look at this entire text from Romans 6, the meaning of which is distorted by the Baptists:" Do you not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? So we were buried with Him by baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. For if we are united to Him in the likeness of His death, we must also be united in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, so that the body of sin might be abolished, so that we might no longer be slaves to sin; for he who died was freed from sin. But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having risen from the dead, no longer dies: death no longer has power over Him. For if He died, He died once to sin; but if He lives, he lives to God. In the same way count yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. So, let him not reignsin is in your mortal body, that you may obey it in its lusts; and do not give up your members to sin as instruments of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as having been raised from the dead, and your members to God as instruments of righteousness" (Rom.6:3-13). As you can see, baptism occurs at the death of Christ, and not at all at His burial. "We were buried" – because we went down into the water and, as it were, became partakers of death, because all those who are in the earth are dead, but the earth in the sacrament of baptism is replaced by another similar element-water. This descent into water, i.e., baptism, gives us renewed life and makes us in some measure partakers of the resurrection of Christ. Baptism, on the other hand, gives victory over sin, frees us from the bondage of sin, and crucifies the old man. Through this, life begins to work in us (as opposed to death, which was before), which gives us the power to act in Christ, the power to fulfill His commandments and not to obey sin. The baptism of Baptists, being an empty rite, does not give life in Christ and does not give an experience of this life. Therefore, Baptists do not know or even believe in the possibility of a Christian's victory over sin, and we have had the experience of such a victory for every saint, but every believer has the experience of the grace-filled power inherent in us to overcome sin, even if sometimes we ourselves have been overcome by sin. Of course, the absence of the living grace of God leads Baptists to incorrect asceticism and theology.

Orthodox priest: - And find the text that says that repentance before baptism is baptism. Not so much that your conjectures, but you directly in the text, on the line show.

Baptist Pastor: - Once again, that repentance is before baptism...

Orthodox priest: - ... this is baptism. As you just told me, here is the text, please show me, I will agree with you. I do not know such texts, and I believe that your interpretation is contrary to the Scriptures.

Baptist Pastor: – I never said what."..

Orthodox priest: - You said literally that "all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death" (Rom. 6:3), refers not to the act of water baptism, but to the previous repentance, which has nothing to do with water. Prove it and give another example. You have given us the rules of hermeneutics.

Baptist Pastor: I believe that in I Corinthians 12 it is written ," For we were all baptized into one body by one Spirit " (1 Corinthians 12:13). That is, the baptism of water, is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. So He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and Fire. And there is the baptism of water. There is also the baptism of suffering, in addition. So this is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which Paul writes about in the Corinthians, and at this moment we are immersed in the body of Christ – this is not water baptism. This is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It occurs when a person repents. This is immersion in Christ.

Orthodox priest: - You are wrong to think so...if according to the text," for we were all baptized into one body by one Spirit, whether Jews or Greeks, bond or free, and we were all made to drink by one Spirit " (1 Corinthians 12:13), did you quote correctly?

Baptist Pastor: Yes.

Orthodox priest: - The Lord says (John 3: 5) that"whoever is not born of water and the Spirit– here is the Spirit– cannot enter the kingdom of God." That is, we see a complete match. The birth of water and the Spirit is the baptism that we believe it is, and you cannot deny it, it is the baptism that gives the Spirit. And the apostle says the same thing, and not only gives the Spirit, but also introduces it into the body of the Church. And you agree that baptism introduces you to the body of the Church, and everything seems to coincide. You specifically mentioned this to us.

Baptist Pastor: I understand your point. I think you understand mine.

Orthodox priest: - I don't see that you are making a decent argument. Because your text, which you cite, it speaks against you.

Baptist Pastor: Well, I think we're not going to show it too deeply.

Comment: Without a Bible answer, Baptists are unwilling to admit that they are wrong. Their false teaching contradicts the Bible, but they do not want to find out the truth, just to remain in their lovely feeling that they are already saved.

Orthodox: – Why not?" it is very important.

Baptist: We still have a lot of questions that I think the brothers want to ask.

Orthodox priest: - I understand correctly that you have agreed with our point of view here?

Baptist Pastor: - No, I did not agree that water baptism is the rebirth of a person. I have given you three arguments that the Word of God and the Holy Spirit participate in water baptism, or rather, in the spiritual rebirth of a person. That's all. That is, Christ meant the Word of God by water. The third is not given.

Orthodox priest: - So I understand correctly (you have explained the hermeneutics to us), where we see the word "water" in the Gospel of John – this is "teaching". For example, when the Lord turns water into wine, it is clear that He takes a lot of "Word" and makes it wine…

The fact is that there are several texts where, in fact, "water" means "teaching". For example, in a conversation with a Samaritan woman. For example, in the 8th chapter of the Gospel of John. But it always explains in a row that "water" means teaching. But if there is no such explanation, then, of course, if the blood and water flow from the rib of Christ, but not the "teaching" flows – the water flows. If John baptizes in the water of Christ, in the water of the Jordan, but not in the "teaching" in the Jordan he baptizes – in the water he baptizes.

This is an elementary rule of hermeneutics. The very thing you told us about quite rightly. Therefore, of course, if it is written "water", then it is water, if it is written "teaching", or water means teaching (it is written on the row), we believe so and read so. Why then distort the Word of God and see what is not there?

Baptist Pastor: Yeah, okay. Let's ask a couple more questions. Our main goal was that we would talk about how we believe, and not argue and accuse others that "you are distorting the Scriptures."

Comment: Again the Baptists are evading the question. Although it is clearly shown that the word "water" usually means water, and only in some cases, when the inflow meaning is obvious, it means "teaching". In his conversation with Nicodemus, there is no parable about water; the Lord expounds a positive teaching. It is incomprehensible to Nicodemus not because of the water, but because of the image of the second birth, which he himself says in response to the Savior: "The Spirit breathes where it wants, and you hear its voice, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes.": so it is with everyone born of the Spirit. Nicodemus said to Him in reply: how can this be?" (John 3: 8-9). So, the reason for Baptists ' mistakes is not their ignorance or lack of understanding of the Bible, but their unwillingness to learn the correct teaching. That they place their own human opinion above the word of God and the teachings of the Church.

Orthodox priest: - You do not distort the Scriptures, but you interpret.

Baptist Pastor: "You misrepresent, you disagree with the Scriptures." We have never told you this yet, but we have already heard it from you several times.

Orthodox priest: - So we, in fact, say....

Baptist Pastor: – We agreed that we would share our faith. I believe like this, I stand on such beliefs. I wonder how you believe, you tell me how you believe. Okay, thanks, I'll keep that in mind. And we go on, questions appear, I ask questions, you ask questions. Everyone here is present. Why are we in an expanded team? so that everyone can participate. We ask questions. If my answer doesn't satisfy you, don't say, "Oh, you're not answering according to the Scriptures!"

I answer as I believe, as I understand. You think I don't answer according to the Scriptures. And it seems to me that you are not answering according to the Scriptures. But let's not blame each other for this. So, let's go further, there are many more questions that clarify this point, as you believe, as you understand.

Orthodox (speaker): – Well, come on, you asked the question, now we are on our side. You have touched on the topic of hermeneutics. In general, your central verse is "not the washing away of carnal uncleanness, but a promise to God of a good conscience." (1 Peter 3: 21)

The question is simply this: does it bother you that this word "eperotima", which is translated as "promise", it occurs only once? And it can be understood both as a "promise" and as a"question". But in its verb form, "eperetao", it occurs 59 times in the New Testament, 59! And it always means "questioning".

Baptist Pastor: Well, I haven't personally researched it.

Orthodox (speaker): – Well, you're talking about hermeneutics, that you can't build your teaching on one verse and so on. It occurs once in this form, and in the remaining 59 cases it is a "question".

Orthodox priest: - Just to clarify, the dictionary includes both the meanings of "question" and "promise". But the context there does not directly show how to choose correctly. The Slavic translation, for example, states "questioning", and the Russian, as you know, the Synodal translation, gives "promise". But here are other uses of words, as we are told, they show such a context.

Baptist Pastor: – In your translation of "question", what do you mean?

Orthodox (speaker): - A person asks the Lord, asks the Lord for help in order to preserve a good conscience. God help me! That's what we're doing.

Baptist: - And this does not contradict this promise.

Orthodox (speaker): "A promise, you say – a covenant...

Baptist: - No, you can go all the way. However, this does not mean that I rely on myself, on my carnal powers, to preserve my conscience. That's not so. "Questioning" is also a very, very good translation, because we always ask that the Lord help us, that we really be faithful, remain faithful. There are many other texts about this in the Holy Scriptures, where we really ask, need, depend on God to remain faithful to Him.

Orthodox (speaker): – No, in the report it sounded like a contract. That I have a covenant with God, that I keep myself from this moment on, I do not sin, I have already died for a previous life, and so on. This contract is a promise of a good conscience. What exactly is the basis of the dogma of baptism?

Baptist: -. Yes, I have always understood, believed and taught this way.

Orthodox priest: - Can I agree with you on this issue? I would like to say that I agree that baptism is entering into a covenant with God. It is very important. That it is not the previous actions of a person, including repentance, but rather baptism that is entering into the covenant. It is both a promise that can promise, and a question that can ask. But in any case, the beginning of a relationship with God. Why does the Lord speak of being born of the Spirit? The Spirit wasn't there yet. The Spirit called to the Baptismal font. Now the Spirit is given, and entering into a covenant with God takes place. I totally agree with you.

Baptist Pastor: - Thank you. So, in Greek there is this meaning - "request", "inquiry". It is my omission that I did not investigate this as it is written in Greek.

Baptist: - Just by the inner meaning of both "promise" and "question" - everything has the same meaning. What's the point of one? To be obedient to Jesus Christ. That the "promise of a good conscience" is obedience, that the "question" again we come to obedience so that we may be obedient. That is, this covenant, for our part, we agree to obey. As it turns out, it may not be very successful at first, but we are already inwardly disposed to obey God. They lived in unbelief – they did not obey God, in their own way, and now they are in obedience.

Can I ask you a question?

Orthodox: - Yes.

Baptist: - At the expense of the church, here was the last phrase. We're not in church, we need to go back to church… What is the church in your understanding?

Orthodox (speaker): – In general, according to the biblical teaching, if we consider the Bible, not in isolation from the context, then the church can only be called such a community of people who believe in Jesus Christ, which, first of all, has its origin from Christ to our days. That is, they did not appear there 300 years ago, 500 years ago, at best, as Lutherans, and so on. Which has apostolic succession. Well, we will analyze this point by point. Let's see, this very fact shows that it is the Orthodox Church that is the true Church.

In the age of modern technology, anyone, any believer, or even any atheist, can trace the line of succession, for example, the succession from Patriarch Kirill and, in this case, to the Apostle Andrew. That is, I repeat, it is just a fact. Here we realized that the Orthodox Church is the church that the Lord created. This is the church that will be "the pillar of the foundation of the truth" (1 Timothy 3: 15) in all ages, that "the gates of hell will never prevail" (Matthew 16:18), and that will keep the truth.

The second aspect of the church. The Church is a community of believers in Jesus Christ who preserve the purity of Divine revelation in its entirety. That is, in the form of divine Tradition and Holy Scripture, and do not cut off one of them. You will remember that the Apostle Paul said that ... "Stand fast and keep the tradition which you have been taught, either by the word", that is, by divine Sacred Tradition, "or by our epistle" (2 Thess. 2: 15), that is, the Holy Scriptures.

The third aspect is the Sacraments, and the fourth aspect is the hierarchy of the church.

Baptist: - So your church comes from the Apostle Andrew, right?

Orthodox priest: - Yes. And he was sent by Christ.

Baptist: - And if there were Catholics among us, they would say differently that the Church is from Peter… And what am I talking about? They say, for example, from Peter, you go from Andrew, someone else from someone else. But we see that according to the Scriptures, the church is the body of Christ. Well, I'd like to know.

I do not know if you have a membership or not…The Orthodox Church, is it the body of Christ, or are the children of God, who by faith, by baptism, by renewal by the Holy Spirit, these born children of God, are the Body of Christ? Or is the Orthodox Church the Body of Christ?

Orthodox priest: - Very simple. Everyone who is baptized in the Orthodox Church is a member of it, if he has not fallen away. If it has fallen away, of course, it ceases to be one.

Baptist: - Where did you fall from?

Orthodox priest: - Lost his faith or joined some other religious organization or something else.

Baptist: - And if he remains in the Orthodox Church, sins, sits in prison, does what he wants, but he is Orthodox and he considers himself Orthodox?

Orthodox priest: - Well, he can consider himself anything, but " faith without works is dead "(James 2: 20). That is, if a person refutes his faith by his actions...

Baptist: - But he was baptized, performs the sacraments, maybe even in prison somewhere...

Orthodox priest: - The Apostle Judas was also called by Christ, participated in many miracles that Christ performed. Moreover, he performed miracles himself when the Lord sent his 12 apostles to preach. Scripture does not tell us that all 11 healed, cast out demons, and Judas, because he betrayed Christ, was outside of this grace. That is, Judas was also a participant in the preaching, a participant in the Grace of God, but in the end, his falling away, his sin, led him to fall away from the Lord.

Therefore, a person who has been baptized in the Orthodox Church may also fall away because of his works, because of his faith, because faith and works are interrelated.

That is, of course, you also mentioned this today, that we all, unfortunately, sin, we all repent, but it is one thing when a person treats sin as a crime and apostasy from Christ, and as Peter repents of this, and then through repentance unites with Christ again... At least he was a killer...Or a person, like Judas, rejects the grace of God and, accordingly, ends his life in a different way. Therefore, a person can consider himself Orthodox.

Baptist: The priests give him Communion, but basically it's all about his faith, right?

Orthodox priest: - If he repents…

Orthodox: – I have an addition to this, that the Head of the church here is Christ. Christ is a heart-seer, and only He knows the heart of a person, and He knows who is part of the church and who is not. And a person can count as you like.

Orthodox priest: - But, again, this is included or not included, I do not mean from all people in general, but from those who have been baptized. It is important.

Baptist: - And here, and one last thing to clarify: you are from the Apostle Andrew.

Orthodox priest: - No, the hierarchy is from Andrew, but we are from Christ. And Andrew from the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, don't forget that.

Baptist: - And the Catholic Church, it has continuity from the Apostle Peter. And the other 10 are still apostles.

Orthodox priest: - Everyone has their own.

Baptist: Do you know who's from whom?

Orthodox priest: - Of course.

Baptist: - Well, let's say, what is it, from the Apostle Thomas? Because when you say that we are not in the church, you are certainly coming from the apostles...

Orthodox priest: - Let's just say you asked about Thomas. I'll tell you about him alone, and then, if you're interested, you can find out for yourself. Specifically, the Apostle Thomas preached in India, where he was killed, where the Indian church was founded, which later deviated into the Monothelite heresy, the Malabar Church. Therefore, they trace their hierarchical succession precisely from the Apostle Thomas. That is, in principle, all these lists are there.

I have a question about the report.

Baptist Pastor: - Yes, we are listening.

Orthodox priest: - I liked your report both for its thoroughness and a number of points that I did not expect to hear, which are very close to us. And here, I would like to ask you about two such points. Among other things, you said that a person must be baptized as a baptized person, that is, a continuous system of baptism. You can't baptize yourself.

Baptist Pastor: Yes.

Orthodox priest: - Good.

Baptist Pastor: "A dead person can't bury himself. Someone else should bury him.

Orthodox: - Yes, excellent. This is a very correct remark, and I think so too.

And secondly, you say that a person (here is another condition of baptism), he must be taught the Bible, or rather, the correct understanding of the Bible. And here's this preacher that's telling him, he's got to be sent. Do I understand you correctly?"

Baptist Pastor: Yes, of course.

Orthodox priest: - Excellent. And even you have a system of emissary, that is, you did not set yourself up as a presbyter of this community. Someone made you a pastor. Here, these two points seem very correct to me. I totally agree with them. But here's what confuses me. Here, you, in fact, someone put. The one who put you in, someone also put you in.

But this whole purpose of delivering and sending goes back to John Smith, who baptized himself in 1609. Why did you baptize yourself? I'll explain. It was a serious thing. At that time, in all of Europe, in all of his immediate surroundings (he lived in England, then moved to Amsterdam), in his opinion, there was not a single baptized person. All were baptized in childhood.

And so John Smith, being in the company of what he considered unbaptized people, and being unbaptized himself, having no one to receive baptism from, since it was interrupted in his opinion from the time of the apostles, he baptized himself and his followers.

And then Helvis and the others went on baptizing. That is, it turns out that you have informed us, and rightly, you have just confirmed it, that from the apostles to this day, baptism should be continuous. The living baptize the dead, not the dead the dead. And this one baptized himself, and that's the father of Baptism.

And the second point, as for the sermon, I agree with you that it should be sent by another person who has the Spirit of God, has the right to send. But again we go back continuously to the 17th century, to the same John Smith, who sent John Smith? Who came up with the idea of baptism as an adult? If you tell me about the Anabaptists, I'll agree with you, I won't argue, it's not true, but I'll agree. We'll go back another 100 years. And these, who sent them? That is, we have a discontinuity of the apostles ' message in both preaching and baptisms, if we agree with you.

And if we agree with the Orthodox, then there is continuity of baptism from the apostles to this day and continuity of preaching. What do you think?

Baptist Pastor: - I'll answer the question with a question. Who sent the Apostle Paul? Who made him an apostle and sent him? Are the apostles in Jerusalem, or did Christ send him directly?

Orthodox priest: Well, let's just say that Christ sent and gave him the Holy Spirit.

Baptist Pastor: Yes. And only 14 years later, he says that he went to Jerusalem to check whether we preach correctly, whether we act in the same spirit. That is, even in the first century, Paul did not accept continuity. It was directly sent by Jesus Christ and that's it. So, it turns out that there are 12 apostles, and Paul generally stands alone.

Maybe the Baptists came from Paul? We probably got the succession from him. But I'm just kidding, because I don't believe in this continuity.

Orthodox priest: - So, why did you talk about it?

Baptist Pastor: – I don't believe in continuity.

Orthodox priest: - You were talking about her..

Baptist Pastor: – I believe that God can find anyone in a pagan country, touch their heart, enlighten their mind, and show them His grace, right?" And this person, having believed in Christ and received the Holy Spirit, will go, will be the first missionary, he will not accept any messenger from anyone. And through him, God will create many churches in this country. I believe in it.

Baptist: And we understand that the teaching of Baptism is not a denomination at all. What does it have to do with Baptism or Orthodoxy? I didn't understand it here. What am I talking about? Our center is Christ. And I'll say this, even if a person is of a different denomination, it doesn't necessarily mean that they have come to be Baptists. That is, it is not a question of religion, but of a personal relationship with Christ.

Orthodox priest: - I understand. And the second half is about baptism. He is dead and baptized himself. What do you say here?

Baptist Pastor: - Again…

Orthodox priest: - John Smith baptized himself. And then the Baptists were baptized by him. What do you say here?

Baptist Pastor: – I once knew that John Smith was sort of the founder of the Baptist movement.

Orthodox priest: - Well, it's common knowledge. Or Helvis, if you like.

Baptist Pastor: – I forgot about that a long time ago. It doesn't matter. And I've never associated myself with it.

Orthodox priest: That's understandable.

Baptist Pastor: "Neither Calvin nor Luther. They are also the fathers of the Reformation. But I didn't leave them. My faith, my salvation, does not depend on them.

Orthodox priest: - We say that baptism is exactly what is connected with life. And here it turns out that John Smith is dead and remains dead, and you received this deadness from him in succession.

Baptist Pastor: No, why not? I personally received this living faith through the word of God.

Orthodox priest: - You have received faith, but here is the rebirth…

Baptist Pastor: - And regeneration through the word and the Holy Spirit. They say here are the Baptists… According to our faith, a person receives regeneration not through baptism, but through faith in the word of God.

Orthodox priest: - That is, all the fruits of baptism that were announced to us, and which John Smith did not have, in your opinion, and could not pass on to others, because he did not have it himself, and you also do not have it, they all turn out to be empty words, I understand correctly?

Baptist Pastor: – I'm not good at history.

Comment: That's right, Baptists usually don't know much about their original history. By doing so, they show that they are alien to the historical body of the Church. But in this case, the pastor is asked not to voice his knowledge of the history of Baptism, but to answer a logical question. If John Smith was spiritually dead, he could only pass on this deadness to his spiritual descendants. Therefore, Baptists cannot but be spiritually dead people without access to the church's sacraments. But the pastor again does not want to answer in substance, in order to avoid an unpleasant question.

Orthodox priest: - Well, let's say entering a church…

Baptist Pastor: I've never been interested in continuity at all.

Orthodox priest: - We are talking about baptism. You told us that it was mentioned in the report that only another person who has been reborn can baptize.

Baptist Pastor: Yes.

Orthodox priest: - And here John Smith baptized himself, and then taught others what he did not have.

Baptist: - But why do you think that we" sit " from John Smith?

Orthodox priest: - And because you are Baptists, there is no choice.

Baptist: Well, you see the catch, I just explained it. I will withdraw tomorrow, for example, from the membership of the Baptist church, am I still a believer?

Orthodox priest: - You can go out and stay, you can go out and not stay…

Baptist: - No, no, as from membership, here from a piece of paper crossed out, and I am not a member of the Baptist church. Am I staying true or is my faith gone?

Orthodox priest: - You understand that some come out after losing their faith, and some without losing their faith.

Baptist: But faith, it turns out, is somewhere in the denomination or in the heart?

Orthodox priest: - Faith is in the heart, of course, or there is no faith in the heart, of course.

Baptist: - What does it have to do with Baptism or Orthodoxy?

Orthodox priest: - Because according to the report, it turns out that baptism gives some fruits. The report said so. I'm asking if John Smith didn't receive the fruit and pass it on to his followers…

Baptist: I'll tell you what... Well, we came from Christ, from John the Baptist, let's take it. Or from any other apostle. We can also tell you. Smith got the story. Before Smith, tell me if you know the story.

Orthodox priest: - Tell me what exactly?

Baptist: - You took it from Smith, and before Smith, too, there were people.

Orthodox priest: - There were no Baptists.

Baptist Pastor: – You say the year 1054 is the great division. Before that, were you called Orthodox?

Orthodox priest: - Of course. You just haven't studied history, apparently.

Baptist Pastor: Yes. Tell me, have Christians called themselves Orthodox since the first century?

Orthodox priest: - The Church of Christ was called. Then, to distinguish it from all others, it began to be called Orthodox.

Baptist Pastor: When did it get called that?

Orthodox priest: - When heresies appeared. This began immediately in the first century, when people deviated from the true faith, continued to call themselves Christians, but at the same time by their faith deviated from the Holy Scriptures, from the teaching of the apostles. And in order to somehow identify these people…

Comment: If it is absolutely historically accurate, then for the first time the use of the word "Orthodox" is recorded in church writers of the second century, starting with Clement of Alexandria. It may well be that the Orthodox Church was called before, but there are no other written monuments left. See more about this: https://bibleox.com/ru/ru/w/почему-церковь-православная.

Let's say we came to you and you have a sign at the entrance. It says exactly what you declare – we are Baptists, right? The Church of Evangelical Baptist Christians. If you come to an Orthodox church, it will be written there – the Moscow Patriarchate, the Russian Orthodox Church. That is, it is a notation. To distinguish them from you, and from others. Therefore, when these already large schisms arose – Catholics and Orthodox-in order for any person who is well versed in this topic or does not understand this topic at all, to understand who is in front of him, respectively, these abstract organizations began to designate themselves in such a way that people understood that these people are not the same as the Orthodox. the congregation believes like this, and these people, this congregation believes like this.

And initially, of course, we remember when people first began to be called Christians – in Antioch. But not immediately, not on the first day, again, so that these people are different from the Jews. That is, from people who did not believe in the Messiah and did not accept Him as the Savior, it was those who believed in Christ who began to be called Christians. And the Jews began to perceive them as sects. And, accordingly, for the convenience of distinction, they began to be called so. But we're in a bit of a spiral right now.

We listened to you carefully, so we saw a certain contradiction. That's the problem. Because when you spoke, first of all, you first said that baptism is "baptizo" (immersion) in Greek, and then during the dialogue you refused to do so…

Baptist pastor: - So you think that they refused…

Orthodox priest: - You just said yourself that baptism is not immersion.

Baptist Pastor: No. I have added another concept that, in addition to water baptism, there is also the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which occurs at the moment of repentance.

Orthodox priest: - You just said that baptism is not immersion. And in the beginning, you said that baptism is immersion. Then you can check it on the record, maybe I misunderstood something. One text said "not diving". And now we have clarified. You really said some wonderful things, that a dead person can't baptize a dead person. And that a person can't hear if no one is sent to them. And you yourself have illustrated this with the story of the Apostle Philip and the eunuch. Then the example of Pavel was added. Because you mentioned that we were baptized with Christ. But, first of all, Christ did not baptize anyone, this Gospel clearly says. And secondly, we see that Paul, having believed in Christ, realizing that he was going to Damascus to destroy Christians, repenting of this, still receives baptism from the apostles.

Yes, he did not immediately go to Jerusalem and did not receive, so to speak, the blessing of the apostles for his preaching, but there was an understandable reason for this, if we talk historically. Because Paul was not accepted for a long time, and he himself writes about this, that he was a persecutor of the church, and therefore they looked at him as a spy, to put it bluntly, because even the apostles found it difficult to believe in such a wonderful conversion of a person.

And even when he is then sent to preach with Barnabas, the apostles look at this situation with surprise, because it is clear that this infirmity manifests itself in a human way. But all the same, we see, and the Scripture clearly says, that although Paul was personally converted to Christ, he still receives baptism from the apostles, and that is what we are talking about.

Baptist Pastor: - Paul was baptized by Ananias.

Orthodox priest: Yes, Ananias, the apostle.

Baptist Pastor: "And who is Ananias?"

Orthodox priest: - From seventy apostles.

Baptist Pastor: "Well, that's just fiction.

Orthodox priest: - Why fictions?

Baptist Pastor: – The Scriptures do not say that he is an apostle, not a word is said about his apostleship, and everything that... is not spelled out in the Bible, this is all guesswork, fiction.

Comment: Great idea. So how do Baptists know that it was the Apostle Matthew who wrote the Gospel of Matthew? There is no mention of this in the Gospel itself. So we have to turn to the church Tradition. But when they are told from the same Tradition about the status of ap. Ananias, they reject him. Isn't that hypocritical?

Another small moment like this, in order for the Russian Baptists, you need to read a little bit about how they were formed, namely the Russian Baptists. Because you're talking about John Smith there, but all of us, Russian Baptists, Evangelical Baptists, were formed from three independent points of revival in Russia. They were Stundists, they were Evangelical Christians, they were Baptists.

Orthodox priest: - Molokans, let's add more.

Baptist: - Molokans they then entered, Mennonites - they were Stundists… there was an awakening… So it is simply inappropriate to put John Smith at the head of Russian Baptism, because there were these three independent points… And where did Lord Redstock come from then?

Orthodox priest: - From England.

Baptist pastor: - From England, from where, from what church?

Orthodox priest: - He was his own evangelist.

Baptist pastor: "This is a Baptist.

Comment: Amazing historical ignorance! Well, at least they would admit that they don't know, but they want to study the theory of the question... And after all, Redstock's students were not only called "evangelical Christians", but also were not in communion with Baptists until the Soviet government (and not their Christian conscience at all!) It did not force the Prokhanovites ("evangelical Christians") to reconcile with the Baptists in 1944.

Orthodox priest: - The very idea of baptism in adulthood, it is not typical for Mennonites or others. This is exactly the Baptist invention.

Baptist: - No, we say that Russian Baptist, it did not come specifically from John Smith. You say that he baptized himself, and you want to say about this continuity that Russian Baptist is from John Smith. But we need to take a look at the history of Russian Baptism. A little over two hundred years ago. It comes with three independent ones (they didn't agree) points of awakening in Russia.

Orthodox priest: But German preachers were active everywhere, and you don't talk about it.

We are now going back to history, where we all swim a little bit, because we simply did not prepare to discuss the historical essay. Just why we stopped here now, because the report first says that it is important that a living person baptizes a dead person, the messenger preaches to the one whom the Lord sends, and then you yourself refuse, say that I don't care who Smith was baptized by, the main thing is that I am with God. It turns out to be a contradiction …

Baptist Pastor: – I didn't say that.

Orthodox priest: You said yourself that you don't care how Smith was baptized.

Baptist Pastor: – I didn't say that all this is not important, but all these people sent by Christ, who awakened others, preached the gospel, baptized – these are God's tools. And God can take this tool anywhere, turn a gentile into a Christian, and he will be the first missionary, as I have already said, in this country, and he will not know any continuity, and hundreds and thousands of churches will be formed there. They may not be named in any way. Neither Orthodox nor Baptists, just Christians, and these will be the purest Christians, in fact, if without any additives. So that's what I believe. Then he'll go, God will send him, and he'll preach, baptize, and so forth. Otherwise, we will link to the name.

Orthodox priest: - Let me turn to the other brothers.

Baptist Pastor: - Yes, yes, of course.

Orthodox priest: We were told from the epistle to the Galatians that when the Apostle Paul began to preach, he nevertheless went to Jerusalem, and there he consulted with the pillars of the church, with the senior apostles, and they recognized that the gospel was correct. Do I understand your quote correctly?

A Baptist pastor, Yes.

Orthodox priest: - Here. It was important for the Apostle Paul himself, and it was important for others that they all preached in the same spirit. Right?

Baptist Pastor: Yes.

Orthodox priest: - Excellent.

Baptist Pastor: This is very important.

Orthodox priest: - When Baptism appeared, which of the pillars of the church did they consult in order to get both human approval and people already appointed by God who have the right to preach?

Baptist Pastor: – I don't know. I wasn't living then.

Orthodox priest: - I know. It was a persecuted community that fought for its existence and survived. And even to this day it has borne great fruit. I mean, a large number of believers. So, of course, there was no such advice. He sent himself.

Baptist Pastor: No. If Christ sent him, we can't dispute that.

Orthodox priest: - We agreed with you that we need the consent of the previous pillars. But he wasn't. There should be a single sermon.

Baptist: - Remember how Gamaliel stood up and said, " If this enterprise is of men... it will be destroyed "(Acts 5: 38-39)

Orthodox priest: - Jehovah's Witnesses like to quote this passage. They love you very much.

Comment: This is understandable. "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and show his power, spared with great longsuffering the vessels of wrath that were ready to perish, so that together he might show the riches of his glory over the vessels of mercy that he had prepared for glory" (Rom.9:22-23).

Baptist: - I do not know, I do not want to talk about perjury, the fact is that it will collapse. And if it's from God? And we're watching… We are going to the roots of history, there may be distortions… We look at the results and fruits. And this Russian Baptist church has gone through persecution, prisons, and everything. And we see that before the Soviet Union, Orthodox priests recognized Russian Baptists as true believers. Vasily Guryevich Pavlov and others who went and told the common people, revealing Christ. So we're looking at the results.

And now one more point. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is still active today? Or did He only act in the apostles and then give the succession?

Orthodox priest: - Of course, the Holy Spirit works, but not in every person, of course.

Baptist: Not in every way, but It works. It can reveal Christ to a person, even if there is not a single believer.

Orthodox: "Maybe.

Baptist: - Can send him to preach to some tribe or, say, to some nation, so that they will believe. Maybe?

Orthodox priest: - No, it can't.

Baptist: - God can.

Orthodox priest: - No, this is your belief. And in the Scriptures, as you have quoted to us, it is written ," How can we preach unless they are sent? " (Rom. 10: 15). We need a human messenger from people who have God's permission to do this. When the Apostle Paul goes to preach, well, you know, believers pray, lay hands on him, and then he preaches!

Baptist: So A was sent by whom? Christ sent it.

Orthodox priest: - He begins his sermon with a message from people, and he had the Spirit of God long before that! But you remember the book of Acts!

Baptist Pastor: Well, time is running out fast… A very important question, a practical question. Here you are baptizing, you believe that everyone who is baptized should be regenerated. So, how many people have you baptized and how many have been born again in your church? Why are all Orthodox Christians in prison? Why do they drink in pubs? They are all baptized, they all have crosses.

Orthodox priest: - Don't blame everyone, we don't drink, we're not in prison…Let's be more polite.

Baptist Pastor: Well, not all, but most Orthodox people live a worldly life and serve Satan. Why? Both those who were baptized in childhood and in adulthood…

Orthodox priest: - Let's be more polite – some Orthodox people live a worldly life and serve Satan. Let's say some…

Baptist Pastor: - No, no…All prisons are filled with Orthodox Christians. So I went around all of them. Alexey Vladimirovich Vinogradov, do you know him? Yes, here he sits, here he talks, and now there are no Baptists left, there is no one to take care of there. But the Orthodox are full, the Muslims are full there, so why doesn't grace work?

Orthodox priest: - I can easily explain. Please tell me, Ananias and Sapphira, or Simon Magus, did they receive the grace of God when they believed?

Baptist Pastor: "We got it.

Orthodox priest: - Are you sure about this?

Baptist Pastor: Yes.

Orthodox priest: - Then why did all three sin against the Holy Spirit, and one was excommunicated by the apostle, and two even died?

Baptist pastor: Well, because we sinned.

Orthodox priest: - Fair enough.

Baptist Pastor: "They lied.

Orthodox priest: - Because they are of their own free will, having received the gift of the Holy Spirit-that's about Simon, he received the gift of the Holy Spirit, he saw it, and yet, contrary to the Holy Spirit, he began to act sinfully. So are these Orthodox people. Having received the regenerating grace of the Holy Spirit, they did not want to use it of their own free will.

Baptist pastor: - So, it turns out that most Orthodox people who were baptized, they just died again spiritually, right?

Orthodox priest: - It's not that they died... well, you can say that, I even partially agree.

Baptist Pastor: - Okay, then the next question that follows from this. Here we, the church, a hundred people, love God, hate sin, preach the gospel, love people, live a holy life, well, not a sinless life, but a holy one. We don't have any divorces. No one here smokes, drinks, or commits adultery. Do you think that we have revived ourselves by our own efforts? Or is it an act of the Spirit?

Orthodox priest: - Let me continue your idea like this. And also in an apostolic way, you perform miracles, you prophesy, you heal the sick, raise the dead, and show the rest of the gifts of the Holy Spirit that the apostles had. Am I right?"

Baptist Pastor: – I don't quite understand."

Orthodox priest: - How so? We see that the first Christians...

Baptist Pastor: – Look, you say that salvation is only in the bosom of the Orthodox Church, that is, only here does grace work. For Baptists and heretics, grace does not work. That's all, then what, it turns out, we corrected ourselves so much? Have you inspired yourself? What grace do we have then?

Orthodox priest: - And the Jehovah's Witnesses? Well, Jehovah's Witnesses will say the same thing. Does grace work in them, too? You wouldn't agree, would you?" They reject Christ as God!

Comment: There is a great video on the Internet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3bGbbjhBd0. In it, a Muslim, a Hare-Krishna and a Jehovah's Witness testify that after they became faithful followers of their religion, they were helped by Allah, Krishna and Jehovah respectively to become worthy people and stop sinning. But even the Baptist would disagree. Thus, a change in the external life does not indicate the truth and closeness to the living God. Even many atheists change their lives by ceasing to commit serious moral offenses and moving on to the life of a "normal person". Is this also an act of the "god of atheism"? Of course not. It is simply that the action of conscience is awakened in a person, and the devil departs from it, so that the proud consciousness of his own righteousness prevents such a "righteous person" from entering the true Church of Christ and receiving real liberation from sin and forgiveness in it.

Baptist pastor: - So I was at a meeting with Jehovah's Witnesses, and I know their life. They live in sin just like everyone else. They are not free from the power of sin.

Orthodox priest: They say they are free.

Baptist Pastor: "And we're free." But this is not our merit, this is the action of Christ. "You will know by the fruits" …

Orthodox priest: - I have spoken many times with Baptists, who testify that in their congregation (I am not familiar with your congregation) there are people who commit adultery.

I'll tell you a terrible story, even unpleasant, but nevertheless. Told by a person who knows the situation. A woman that went to a Baptist meeting, she sinned, went on a spree, and got pregnant. And she somehow confessed it with shame, but, nevertheless, in front of everyone. She was excommunicated for a while. Then she repented, and the finger was pointed at her for a long time. She was resigned, but still, she lived like this. And then she told her friend that other co-religionists of her own, women are different, they quietly sympathized with her, and then in the process of all this public condemnation, they said: you're a fool (sorry), a fool. I would have had an abortion and nothing would have happened to you.

So what do I want to say? Here we see, first, the mortal sin that she committed adultery. Secondly, others, for the sake of some such respect, pushed her to commit another mortal sin. Is that sanctity? I can agree that there is no such thing in your community. I don't know you. But in other communities, this is quite common.

Baptist Pastor: – I will tell you that we have a carnal life. There are sins among our believers. And when some sins come out in our churches, we question whether this person was not born again. Even if he repented, he repented in the church and was baptized. But the Holy Spirit probably never touched him. And we excommunicate such a person from the Church, yes. And we recognize it. But those people who are free from the power of sin, have they set themselves free? We believe that only Christ.

Orthodox: – We know a lot of moral atheists. Did they regenerate themselves from the power of carnal sin? Or who? Themselves.

Baptist: - Then a question. Where did your personal faith come from?

Orthodox priest: - Everyone has their own life story… The Lord has touched everyone's heart.

Baptist: - And how did it touch you? What happened? Here you personally lived like everyone else. Did you have a meeting with Christ? How did it happen?

Orthodox: - Yes, everyone has it differently. Someone through illness, someone was a believer from childhood. Someone had some sorrows, someone wanted to come to Christ himself. It is written that the Lord knocks at everyone's door. Someone felt that it was important to them…

Baptist: - But this moment is still there? From an unbeliever's life, his own free life, and then here's a God-pleasing life, right? This moment, the watershed?

Orthodox priest: - Well, you know, we have different ways. In our country, many people have been in the Church since childhood, and they have not experienced this power of sin over themselves so acutely. And they just have a calm spiritual growth. And some that... that's what I'll say to myself. As a child, I lived outside the Orthodox Church. And then somehow I realized that I really need and need it. And I see such a watershed for myself. Everyone sees it in their own way.

Baptist: - Well, look at this. Have you changed your attitude to faith in God or your attitude to Christ?

Orthodox priest: - Yes, the attitude to everything has changed. I was blind – I got my sight, what's so incomprehensible?! You don't understand that, do you?

Baptist: I understand.

Orthodox priest: - And then what do you ask?

Baptist: I understand. Why do I say that this happened in baptism?

Orthodox priest: - No, of course not. I was baptized as a child.

Baptist: - So it happened much later?

Orthodox priest: - Much later, yes.

Baptist: Much later. That is, in baptism, it still turns out that a person, you personally, did not see the light…

Orthodox priest: - A spiritual seed was placed in me... I get your point… You misunderstand the word "rebirth". Rebirth is not about being perfect…

Baptist: - Not perfect…

Orthodox (speaker): - In baptism, a person obtains spiritual eyes. It is a seed that has fallen into the ground. And then it depends on the earth how this seed will grow. That is, from the personal will of a person. At first I prevented the seed from growing…

Baptist: But it's a seed…The Word of God, does it work?

Orthodox priest: - This is not the word of God, this is the grace of God.

Baptist: "All right, grace. Does it affect the human heart?

Orthodox priest: - Of course, but the heart hinders this seed. And then, over time, I realized that I was wrong, I had sinned. And I tried to make sure that I didn't hinder God from working in me. But the seed was laid on the day of baptism.

Baptist: Well, what influenced your decision? Namely, not to hinder God, but to live in God's way?

Orthodox priest: - Well, the feeling that I used to live incorrectly, the desire to be with God. And I'm sure it was a call from God.

Baptist: - This is the regenerating action of the Holy Spirit. Just why we say that. If our repentance (immediately after baptism or not immediately after baptism) did not come from a meeting with Christ, so that Christ opened his eyes, the attitude towards the person of Jesus Christ, and, in general, towards God, but, first of all, towards the person of Jesus Christ, did not change, then this is a dead faith. Let it be called Baptist, Orthodox, Catholic, well, this person can be in any church. Now for the second point… Forgiveness of sins. What does a person need it for?

Orthodox priest: - On the first point – you contradict yourself. Before that, you showed the significance of the fruits of faith, that is, actions. And now you say, as the main criterion, and correctly now you say, that a person is changing in relation to God.

Baptist: - Changing. We said it right away, that "he will convict the world of sin because he does not believe in Me."

Orthodox priest: - The Holy Spirit does this. I'm talking about a person, not the Holy Spirit. So it turns out that the fruits, the actions that Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons have, and everyone who says that I was a sinner, became a righteous man... the Pentecostals have crowds coming out and saying this from the stage. This is a common place for them. That is, these actions, changes in the external life, they are less important than internal changes. But we have already found out, as you rightly said, that if a person repented outwardly, had the Holy Spirit, and then it turned out that he was sinning, then he did not repent, so he was not reborn.

Baptist: So external actions, do they come from within, or not?

Orthodox priest: - Yes, the Lord says so: from the heart.

Baptist: - These actions come from the heart, as inwardly it thinks, then it is expressed in actions. So, the forgiveness of sins, what is it for?

Orthodox priest: - So that later, having gained power over sin, I can continue to overcome it. Is not it so?

Baptist: - And then, here for eternity, what does it give?

Orthodox priest: - Well, if I was born, I will live in eternity as if I was born, if I wasn't born, I am a blind man and a dead man, I will go to hell.

Baptist: And your relationship with Jesus? I'm just directing the thought. Here is in relation to Jesus, the forgiveness of sins, your personal forgiveness of sins, what gave for the relationship with Jesus.

Orthodox priest: - You mix things up a bit… Simon Magus believed, was baptized, and received the Holy Spirit.…

Baptist: He hasn't received the Holy Ghost yet… It says he brought money to get it…

Orthodox priest: - Can I show you the text? If you forgot, I'll show you…

Baptist Pastor: - Yes, please…While you are searching, I want to ask another participant, do you have the Holy Spirit?

Orthodox: - Yes.

Baptist Pastor: – When did you get it?"

Orthodox: - In epiphany.

Baptist Pastor: - Were you baptized as a child?

Orthodox: - Yes.

Baptist Pastor: – And it's been active ever since?" Did he do his work for you?

Orthodox: - Yes.

Baptist Pastor: – How long can you remember, have you always been a church-bound person?

Orthodox: No.

Baptist: - Then, when you grew up, you still went out into the world…

Orthodox: - Yes…

Baptist Pastor: – And where did the Holy Spirit go when you went out into the world? Was he in your heart?

Orthodox: - Yes…

Baptist Pastor: – And it didn't show up any more?"

Orthodox: – It manifested itself in some events, in my conscience…

Baptist Pastor: "And he didn't leave you?"

Orthodox: - I didn't leave it.

Baptist: - Good answer. Thank you.

Orthodox priest: - So, " When the Apostles who were in Jerusalem heard that the Samaritans had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who came and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For He had not yet descended on any of them (I will explain why – Philip was a deacon, he had no right to lay hands, to give the Holy Spirit), but had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit." So Simon is one of them. Further, "When Simon saw that the Holy Spirit was given through the laying on of the Apostles' hands, he brought them money, saying, ' Give me this power also, that whomsoever I lay my hands on may receive the Holy Spirit.'" 8:14–19). As we can see, they were baptized…

Baptist: - So you didn't receive the Holy Spirit?

Orthodox priest: - He wanted to get the power to pass it on to others for money. And he himself received the Holy Spirit, of course, as did the Samaritans.

Baptist: - If you take it this way-is the Holy Spirit the eternal God?

Orthodox priest: - Yes, of course, we believe in it.

Baptist: - You can say that a person filled with the Holy Spirit goes and wants to buy power for money in order to rule over others… This means that he did not receive the Holy Spirit…

Orthodox priest: - So that's just the point, what is being opened here… Can a person filled with the Holy Spirit fall away?

Baptist: - Performed at the moment, can not fall away. I'll explain. Tell me, is there darkness here?

Orthodox: "Well, there's a shadow somewhere…

Baptist: "What's she doing?" With light! When a person is filled with the Holy Spirit, they cannot fall away! A person falls away without being filled with the Holy Spirit.

Orthodox (speaker): "Can I ask you a question?" Are you filled with the Holy Spirit now?

Baptist: - Now? Well the Lord fills…

Orthodox (speaker): – You can't drop out, then?"

Baptist: - If the Lord fills, a person cannot fall away.

Orthodox (speaker): – Are you saying that you can't really fall away, that it's impossible?

Baptist: - Let's do this, now I'll go up, push the switch, the light went out. Tell me, the darkness embraced?

Orthodox priest: - Yes, of course.

Baptist: I don't know what's going to happen in five minutes…

Orthodox priest: - So you can still do it?

Baptist: - A person falls away without being filled with God…

Orthodox priest: - Can fall away from God at will. So Simon got it, and then dropped out…

Baptist: - It wasn't, so it was fulfilled…

Orthodox priest: - But it is written here-everyone received the Holy Spirit… And so did he. We got everything.

Baptist: All right, so be it.

Orthodox priest: - Agreed.

Baptist Pastor: – If Christ comes today, will he take you in?"

Orthodox priest: - You are forcing me to solve some very difficult questions for Christ. I would not dare to take on such a function.

Baptist pastor: So you don't have that confidence?

Orthodox priest: - That Christ will come today? I see signs in the holy Scriptures that say He can't come today.

Baptist Pastor: - No, that He will take you... today, if your life ends, will you go to heaven or not?

Orthodox priest: - I hope so…

Baptist pastor: "So you're not sure?"

Orthodox priest: - No, and it can't be, of course.

Baptist Pastor: – And none of you are sure?"

Orthodox: – We have hope.

Baptist Pastor: - Only hope?

Orthodox priest: - The Apostle says: "we are saved in hope" (Rom. 8: 24). You repeat the question you asked us when we first met.

Baptist: - Because different people, different faiths…

Orthodox priest: - No, look, you answered the same way yourself.

Baptist Pastor: No.

Orthodox priest: - When I asked you if it could happen that you would be beyond salvation, you said yes, maybe. You allow it. What is the difference between us in this matter is (perhaps it is not good to say so), but the Orthodox think more humbly about this. We can't decide for God. Yes, we hope that Christ will receive me, we hope and believe that He will give us the life of the next age, but we cannot be sure of this, because one is the judgment of man, and the other is the Judgment of God. Just as the Lord says that "not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 7:21). That is, I say, I can perform miracles, I can preach, but as the Scripture says, the Lord can say to you, "Depart from me, you workers of iniquity; I never knew you" (Matthew 7:23). Although a person may be convinced that he is serving God and that he is following Him. And this is only our human judgment, and quite another – the Judgment of God. Therefore, we do not dare to judge ourselves. Because in the Gospel of John, the Lord Jesus Christ clearly says that "the Father has given all judgment to the Son" (John 5:22). And the Son judges us all. So when we begin to judge ourselves and say that I am saved and he is not saved, or even another, then this is already boldness…

Baptist Pastor: – If you had asked me, I would have said ,' I am sure that if Christ comes today, I will be in paradise.'

Orthodox priest: - We sympathize with you, very much sympathize with you… I would like to wish, God forbid, that it was so... that your own judgment coincided with God.

Orthodox: – You can add that the Apostle Paul said, "I do not judge myself" (1 Corinthians 4: 3), but you judge yourself. To be sure that you are saved is to judge yourself. You, as a human being, have passed judgment on yourself.

Baptist Pastor: – Do you believe in every word written in the Gospel? What is this inspired Holy Scripture?

Orthodox: - Yes.

Baptist Pastor: - Do you have any doubts about any of the texts?

Orthodox: - No.

Baptist Pastor – - (1 John 5: 11-13): "This is the testimony that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He that hath the Son of God hath life; he that hath not the Son of God hath no life. These things have I written to you who believe in the name of God, that you may know that if you believe in the Son of God, you have eternal life. " Already "have". Do you now have eternal life? Eternal life is paradise.

Orthodox priest: - Yes, of course, we now have eternal life. I'll explain it to you so that it's clear. Let's say how a person enters eternal life. For example, the Eucharist – the Body and Blood of Christ, they give a person a part in eternal life. You don't have the Body and Blood of Christ, I understand, you believe that these are symbols. And so, you symbolically receive eternal life through your symbols, and we really receive eternal life through real communion.

Baptist Pastor: - No, we do not receive eternal life through symbols and not through real transformation, but through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Orthodox priest: - I have heard you, and according to the text of the Gospel of John, the sixth chapter, it is written that it is the Body and Blood of Christ that give eternal life. This is how we understand eternal life – Baptism regenerates us, Chrismation gives us the gifts of the Holy Spirit…

Baptist Pastor: - So you should be ten times more sure that you will be there than we are…

Orthodox priest: - That's right, that's right…

Baptist Pastor: – If you say that you have grace, you have continuity…

Orthodox priest: - You said that very accurately…

Baptist Pastor: – We have nothing, but we believe in the sacrifice of Christ and are sure of our salvation.

Orthodox priest: - You said it correctly, but there is a nuance that you don't take into account. Let me tell you?

Baptist Pastor: Yes.

Orthodox priest: - The fact is that the Holy Spirit works in us, and He is very humble, and teaches us the same humility.

Baptist Pastor: "I see. Then a question for the Orthodox sister. Are you married?"

Orthodox: "Married.

Baptist: Are you sure about your husband that any time you approach him, he will be happy to see you? Here, at any time?

Orthodox: - No.

Baptist: "He doesn't love you?" And you're not sure about it? What if he doesn't accept you, that he likes you, that you are his wife, and he is your husband, open in heart?

Orthodox priest: - And if he is tired, and if he is angry?

Orthodox: – I'll tell him I believe him, but I'm not sure about him. Because how can you be sure of any person at all if the Scripture says: "Do not put your trust in princes, in the sons of men, but in them there is no salvation" (Ps. 145:3).

Baptist: - You're going to your husband anyway…

Orthodox: – I have hope…

Baptist: - He accepts you, right…Believe that he loves you…

Orthodox: – I believe him, his word, but I'm not sure…

Baptist: - What's going on in two days... that's what you said right… Why do Christians have confidence? At the moment. We don't say in a year, maybe someone will drop out. Because a person believes that Christ loves him, there is nothing between him and Christ, so if He comes now, I will be with Him. Do you understand what confidence is? Just as you believe your husband, now there is nothing between you, then you go with joy.

Orthodox: – I have no doubt in God, in His mercy, in His love, in His judgment. I don't doubt God. So I have confidence in God, but I don't have confidence in man.

Baptist: I understand.

Orthodox: - I do not know what court He will pass against me, because only He knows.

Baptist: "Does he love you?"

Orthodox: - Yes, He loves everyone.

Baptist: - No, you personally? Why do I say… Because when I went to Christ, Christ drew, I said: "Lord, I don't care that you love everyone, do you love me? When the Lord revealed himself. And if I discovered that He personally loves me, and from early childhood the whole life was revealed like this, then I already got clarity and confidence that He personally loves me, because you are sure that your husband personally loves you? And it forces you to just openly go to it. Well, just socializing and that's it... that's the way it is here – the certainty that He loves me allows me to think that if my life ends now, I will end up in His arms. Because there is nothing between me and Him, but if there is something-I sin, I don't want to live according to Him, then yes, He loves it, but I don't. So if two persons, God and man, love each other…

Orthodox (speaker): - Do you love God now?

Baptist: - Thank God, yes!

Orthodox (speaker): – Don't you sin?"

Baptist: - Why don't I sin? If I sin, Lord, I say, Lord, if only nothing is broken, because I love you. You see, if that's the measure of love between a born-again person and an unborn-again person. If a person does not love the Lord, it is written, anathema. All will appear with Him, " those who love His appearing." (2 Timothy 4: 8)

Orthodox priest: - I suggest that we end the discussion here. It is better to talk about this specifically, as this is a complex topic.