"Salvation" — Dispute (interview) the Orthodox Christian with Baptists

Participating in the debate were:

From the Orthodox side: Priest Evgeny Veselov (speaker), Priest Dimitry Trifonov, Alan Bedoev and others.

On the Baptist side: Pastor Sergei Antonovich Didovets (speaker), Pastor Alexander Finogenov and others.

*For ease of reading, minimal literary editing of the text has been carried out. Comments - Alan Bedoev and Priest Evgeny Veselov.

Report of the Orthodox (Priest Evgeny Veselov)

Orthodox: The theme of our meeting today, as we all know, is the doctrine of salvation. As I considered how to approach this topic, it seemed right for me to understand what stands around salvation and what it represents.

That is in other words: Who saves you? Whom does He save? What does He save you from? Why does He save you? What is the purpose of salvation? In what way, what is the rescue mechanism? This salvation – does it change historically, or is it always the same? The way of salvation – is it easy to be saved? If someone is saved, who is not saved? Finally, when a person is saved, is he saved by himself, or are we saved together in the Church? What is the correct way to understand all this? And it occurred to me that if all these issues as a whole were considered at least briefly, superficially, then the overall picture would be clear.

Who saves you? So, with your permission, I will try to consider this plan. I won't have a lot of quotes, but if necessary, I'll try to say something in response to your questions.

So, I think, it is God, of course, who saves us. Everyone will agree with this. More precisely, God the Father saves through the Son of God in the Holy Spirit, because in the Trinity there is one action. This is not to say that only One is active, and the Other Two are inactive. We don't dissect the Trinity.

God the Father pleases our salvation, desires our salvation. God The Son made atonement, shed blood for us, and offered a great redemptive price for us. And the Holy Spirit assimilates to us the fruits of redemption, or, in other words, what is called deification in the Orthodox Church.

Who does God save? It is clear that any person saves. Because all, says the apostle, are unclean before God, all need to be cleansed, " all... deprived of the glory of God." So, this salvation (and me, and any person) is accomplished, of course, partly with my participation, partly without my participation. Why without? Because what Christ did for me – in other words, the stewardship of our salvation – that he became incarnate, lived like us, taught us something, revealed the gospel, died for me, rose again, ascended-all this I cannot change. This is all done for me. But how this applies to me, to save me personally, it depends on me. I can accept his sacrifice on the cross, or I can reject it. I can be obedient to Him, I can be disobedient to Him.

At the same time, He sees me and gives me a helping hand. So, if I do not participate in the work of house-building, then I do not participate in the work of my own salvation, although God is stronger than I am, and my participation is also required.

What does God save us from? It saves you from basic things: from the curse that lay on ancient Adam, saves from death and saves from sin. But if death, as it were, is in the future, and we only partially see its action in ourselves (corruption), then sin is more obvious. Sin-apostolic, iniquity, or, as we would also say, internal impurity or external impurity before God.

And these are the sins that the Lord saves us from. Saves you from original sin. It is not that when Adam sinned, he became completely weak, unable to do anything good. He wills what is good, as the apostle says, "I will do what is good," and in part He does what is good; even the Gentiles do what is good according to the law of nature.

But to live sinlessly – a person is no longer capable of this. It includes a certain inner sin-the tendency to sin. And this impurity, it requires healing from God. Secondly, it is, of course, about personal sins. Everyone has personal sins. Even the saints, even the apostles, needed purification for the rest of their lives.

And if the Lord tells the Apostle Paul that grace is enough for him: "power... If he did not release him from the "sting in the flesh" so that he would not be exalted, then the apostle also had the danger of being exalted. And some, probably, acted as unworthy.

So, we sin all our lives, and therefore salvation should also continue all our lives, and not just once, and then I don't sin anymore. So what happens?

And finally, the third thing that the Lord saves us from – not only from original and personal sin, but also from sinfulness, that is, from loving sin more than God. As the apostle says, " The thoughts of the flesh are enmity against God "(Rom. 8: 7). Indeed, the Lord also rebukes evil thoughts (Mt 15: 19): "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, theft, perjury, blasphemies." The Apostle Paul repeatedly speaks of the sinful passions that work in our members (Rom. 7: 5).: "For when we were living according to the flesh, then the passions of sin, which are revealed by the law, worked in our members to bring forth the fruit of death." He speaks of the lusts of the flesh and the desires of the flesh (Ephesians 2: 3).: "and we all once lived according to our carnal lusts, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath." He speaks of enmity, envy, anger, heresy, and hatred (Galatians 5: 19-21).: "The works of the flesh are known; they are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, quarrels, envy, anger, strife, dissensions, heresies, hatred, murder, drunkenness, outrages, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do this will not inherit the Kingdom of God." Prohibits sly suspicions (1 Tim.6:4): "he is proud, knows nothing, but is infected with a passion for contests and verbal disputes, from which envy, strife, slander, and sly suspicionsarise." And the Lord says, whoever is angry in vain is subject to judgment, and forbids looking with lust (Mt 5: 22-28). So all these things, not so much actions as movements of the soul – impure movements of the soul – also need to be purified by God. I can strive to purify it, but only the power of God can purify me fully.

Why does the Lord save us? It is clear why. God created us for Himself. God wants us to be with God here and in eternity. But we can already see that I can't do this naturally. I am being born already, as King David says: "my mother bore me in my sins" (Psalm 50:7). So I have original sin in me. Even though I have been baptized, sin is forgiven in baptism, but the love of sin may remain. It is this love of sin that gives rise to personal sins, and especially sinfulness. And this conflict of the grace of God working in me, the desire to be holy and at the same time personal sins, love for sin and the struggle with sin from here continues all my life.

A person, of course, can comfort himself with the fact that he loves God, loves holiness more than sins. But his deeds may convict him. Excuse me, as an illustration, I want to give a brief remark about the author of the concept of salvation by faith alone, about Martin Luther.

You probably know that when the peasant war broke out in Germany, he was a very fierce opponent of the Anabaptist rebels and insisted that the state authorities suppress the uprising at all costs: drown, burn, whatever. As a result, this war claimed the lives of about one hundred thousand peasants. And when Luther was later told that he was a murderer and that the blood of so many people was on his hands that he would look God in the eye, he said, "Yes, I am a murderer; yes, the blood of these people is on me. And many other sins "– he named other sins - " they are also on me. So I take them all and nail them to the Cross of Christ. And so I am clean from these sins!" These are his personal words.

And Luther, interestingly, was often confused by blasphemous thoughts. This is based on his letters. He often had suicidal thoughts. He often forgot himself in various parties with friends, in idle conversations with women, because these thoughts frightened and disturbed him.

Here, you see – the tree has borne its fruit. His ideas of salvation by faith alone what fruits did they bear? Personal holiness, sinlessness, purity both inside and out? No-the fruit, alas, was bad. I'm not even talking about blood, which, however, was largely associated with the activities of Luther himself.

Thus, this conflict with sinfulness continues throughout life, and a person who deceives himself by saying that I am holy and have overcome sin, he, like Luther, can show the opposite in himself.

How does God save us? In this holy place where we are located [Ipatievsky Monastery in Kostroma], I would like to recall the words ofSeraphim of Sarov. He says that we must acquire the grace of the Holy Spirit. And God saves us through being with God. Again, we recall the word "deification". This is a stay with God, which means that it takes place not individually, but as part of the Church. I am not alone and my friend Jesus, but we are together as the Body of Christ. And the abiding with God, it is not now in fullness, because yet"it hath not appeared that we should be" (1 John 3: 2).

Stages of the appearance of the Kingdom of Christ, as theologians say: now the Kingdom of grace, and then the Kingdom of glory will be revealed. Therefore, through the assimilation of the grace of God given to us in the Sacraments, and to the extent that we love God and fulfill His commandments, instead of sin, Divine power or grace enters into us, which heals, strengthens and produces its own fruits, according to our will.

This way of salvation, is it historically the same or different? Christ came, gave us a teaching, set a good example, died for us and rose again, sent the Holy Spirit to His disciples, the apostles, and they gave it to others. Has anything fundamentally changed in the relationship between God and man since then? If I accept this sacrifice of Christ on the cross, if I follow the path that He intended me to follow, is there a fundamental difference between me and apostolic Christians or not?

I can now record this conversation on a voice recorder, for example. I can fly a plane, I can drive a car. None of this happened in apostolic times. But as a person, I remained the same. Is the path of salvation the same or not? Here we must understand that the basis of this path of salvation is the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, it does not change.

When I receive it in an established way, that is, through baptism, through further church life, I enter the New Testament. The New Testament does not change again. So, since the sacrifice of the Cross is unchangeable and the New Testament is unchangeable, the way of salvation from Pentecost to the Second Coming is also unchangeable.

What does this mean? That the Church is unchangeableas the Body of Christ, faith and church teaching are unchangeable, baptism and other Sacraments are unchangeable. We were talking about the baptism of John Smith. This is the most important thing! If he baptized himself and there were no baptists in his time, it means that the way of salvation has changed. If in his time there was no correct teaching, and the Church must preach the correct teaching, according to the words of Christ and the apostle, it is "a pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Timothy 3: 15), then the conditions of salvation have changed. That's the horror! And this is not just a Church, somewhere in the corner someone is saying something. No, the church is a candle on a candlestick, it is a city at the top of a mountain, so everything should be unchanged.

Finally, the commandments, as criteria for evaluating a Christian, also remain unchanged. And these last things, that is, faith, teaching, baptism, and the commandments, as criteria for evaluating a Christian – this is what the apostle called "faith working through love" (Galatians 5:6).

Is it easy to escape? It's easy for you. You have already said this: "We are saved! We believed, and the Lord took our sins upon himself, and now we are saved." Very cool! It's not easy here. Because we must ask this question: do our efforts matter in the matter of salvation or do they not?

It's probably clear that they should matter. And if they do matter, how are they implemented? Is it only in this first act: "Lord, I am guilty before you, forgive me, because I accept you as a Savior" - and then no more? Or is it still a lifetime involved?

That is why we believe (as the apostles and disciples have taught us) that we must fulfill the commandments and achieve inner purity of heart by replacing our passions with love for God and our neighbor. This is what the Lord calls the "narrow gate" and the " narrow way." What He calls the cross to be taken on the path of salvation (Mt.10:38, 16:24, 11:12): "The kingdom of heaven is taken by force, and those who use effort take it away"(Galatians 5: 24): "But those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with all their might. passions and lusts."

"We must watch," says the Lord, and He speaks of this many times: "watch and pray that you do not fall into temptation: the spirit is alert, but the flesh is weak "(Matthew 26: 41), "watch therefore at all times and pray that you may be worthy to escape all these future calamities" (Luke 21: 36), " that your loins may be girded and your lamps may be set on they are burning " (Luke 12: 35)," take heed therefore that ye walk carefully, not as fools, but as wise " (Ephesians 5:15), and so on. Hence therefore the apostle says: "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12). Where is it that I am happy and already saved? "With fear and trepidation, commit or again, he says, "I do not consider myself accomplished, but only strive" (Philippians 3:12). If the apostle Paul did not reach, but only aspires, then who are we to say that we are already saved? In another place the same apostle says: "we are saved in hope" (Rom. 8: 24). He did not say that we had already received what we wanted, but that we were "saved in hope."

Here, I think we need to remember this place, in terms of not that the Lord is taking away our salvation; He promises us, and He's faithful in the word, we have to trust Him. But this trust means that because we are faithful to God, His word will be fulfilled. If we disbelieve, He will turn away from us, just as He promised.

The apostle says that "you need patience, so that when you do the will of God, you may receive the promise" (Hebrews 10: 36). And if we don't have enough patience, if we don't do God's will, will we get what we promised? Here's the thing. So whoever does not keep the commandments falls away from the path of salvation, even if he believes.

Remember the parable of the ten virgins. Five were wise, five were holy fools. Virgins were both. But some had oil, and others had no oil. These are good deeds. The parable of the wedding feast. Everyone entered the wedding feast, but not everyone had wedding clothes. Why is that? That is, it is not enough, it turns out, to enter, you need to stay there, you need to show yourself worthy of the vocation. So this is the fulfillment of God's commandments.

The Apostle Paul says that one can receive grace in vain (2 Corinthians 6: 1).: "But we, as helpers, beseech you that the grace of God may not be received in vain."

He says that Christ may not be depicted in us immediately, but only as we believe (Galatians 4: 19).

Who is not saved? Easy to calculate. Pagans are not saved, atheists are not saved. According to the apostle, heretics are also not saved. Grave sinners are not saved. How serious are they? Murderers, fornicators, adulterers, drunkards – these people are not saved. These people, according to the apostle, are not saved, even if they are believers. Nor are those who are inwardly wicked saved. The apostle gives many examples of such vices: anger, lust, condemnation, idle speech. For some things we will be condemned (the Lord will remember in Judgment), for others we will go to eternal torment, according to His word.

That is why the apostle says in his epistle: "Therefore put to death your earthly members: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil lust, and covetousness" (Colossians 3:5). It is not enough to believe, but to put it all to death. He says: "let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit" (2 Corinthians 7:1). Don't just believe, let's purify ourselves, otherwise we won't have a part with God.

Moreover, even liars are outside the New Jerusalem (Rev 21: 8, 27). Because they did not put off the old man, as the apostle demands in Colossians3:9. Finally, the unbaptized are again there, because the Lord requires them to be born of water and the Spirit (John 3: 5) in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

And finally, are we saved one by one, or as part of the Body of the Church? Christ saves the whole Church, He is the Head of the Body of the Church, He is the Savior of the Body, says the apostle. Christ did not give Himself up for anyone in particular, but for the Churchin order to purify, sanctify, and glorify it (Ephesians 5: 25, 27). Christ is the Head of the Church (Ephesians 1: 22; Colossians 1: 18). The Church, in turn, is "the Body of Christ, the fullness of Him who fills all in all." (Ephesians 1: 23).

This means that we must always be part of the Church, always accept the teaching of the Holy Spirit and the Sacraments in the Church, and remain in obedience and hierarchy, that is, legitimate church teachers, as I have already said, from the apostles and even until the Second Coming.

Thank you all for your attention.

Baptist report (Pastor Sergey Antonovich Didovets)

Baptist: Thank you. I will probably repeat some of the thoughts voiced by Evgeny, because I built my report very similarly.

And I want to start with the fact that salvation became relevant from the moment of the fall of the first people – Adam and Eve. And the text that was already quoted today: "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3: 23) - it has spread to all mankind.

To be deprived of God's glory is to be denied the opportunity to communicate with God and live in Paradise. We know that God drove the first humans out of Paradise. Then Paradise was on earth, now Paradise is in Heaven. We strive for Paradise, but sin divides us. This is the gulf between man and God.

Can a person save himself? We have already heard the answer today. God is our Savior. "Saving a drowning man is the work of the drowning man himself" - there is such a proverb. And, of course, it is wrong, because a person who has already drunk enough water and disappeared under the water, can not save himself.

So we believe, as the Bible says, as you believe, that our Savior is the God of the Holy Trinity, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. And for our salvation, He sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to earth. When the shepherds were in the field, they saw an Angel, heard the Angels singing and a voice that sounded from heaven: "Now is born unto you in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord" (Luke 2: 11).

This is the Savior given to people, as the Angel said. "For there is no other name under heaven given to men, by which we must be saved"– sermon Peter (Acts 4: 12). We also know these words very well. The very name Jesus means "Savior". Therefore, we sinners rejoice that we have been given hope in the Son of God, Jesus Christ.

And I also put the following question, as well as Evgeny. What does Jesus save us from? Here I want to mention four points.

First, from feelings of guilt. We all need forgiveness. A person who has burned or destroyed his conscience may not feel guilty. But children, all of us in our childhood, when we were children, children feel when they do something wrong; conscience judges, and this makes us feel guilty.

When a person, growing up, still reacts to the accusation of conscience, this guilt increases, and he feels that he carries behind him, as if behind his shoulders, a heavy burden of guilt. This is like a bag that is placed on the shoulders, and the person cannot straighten up and look at the sky. And Jesus saves us from guilt by giving us forgiveness.

He has the power to forgive sins. When He saw the paralytic, before healing him, He said:: "Child! your sins are forgiven you "(Mark 2: 5). And people thought that He was blaspheming, but Christ proved that He had the power to forgive sins, healed this man.

And it is also written in the Book of Acts that Christ forgives people's sins; many texts say this, but I chose this one: "Of him all the prophets bear witness, that whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins in his name." (10:43).

And when a person believes in this truth, that God forgives him in Jesus Christ, accepts this truth by faith in his heart and receives forgiveness of sins, he immediately disappears the feeling of guilt. Because when a small child has done something wrong and understands that his father should punish him, he comes up and asks his father for forgiveness, and hears: "I forgive you."

After that, he immediately feels guilty somewhere disappears, and joy appears on his soul and face.

The secondthing that Christ saves us from is the power of sin. "Everyone who commits sinis a slave to sin. But the servant does not abide in the house forever; the son abides forever. If therefore the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed "(John 8: 34-36). Christ said of Himself:"I have the power not only to forgive sins, but also to release from the power of sin." Because sin is the master, and we are slaves, we cannot free ourselves.

Forgiveness and absolution can be compared to an amnesty. These are the first two points, which I summarize into one. What is an amnesty? An amnesty is a special document that was written and signed by the president or some important person who has the right to sign. And this amnesty contains very good news for the convicts.

Convicts can still be in a pre-trial detention center or already serve time in prison, but when the amnesty is issued and communicated to these people in prison or in the zone, what do these people get? They also receive forgiveness for their sins. They bear the punishment they deserve for their sins, but when they bring a document stating that you have been pardoned (an amnesty is a document about pardoning), and a person understands that everything that he did before was simply taken and erased, then what do they say to him? When he has already learned this truth, that he has been pardoned, they say to him: "Pack your bags and go free."

He is not only released from guilt and from being punished for what he did before, but also released, that is, released to live a completely different life. So, Jesus Christ on the Cross proclaimed this amnesty for each of us. He both forgives us from the Cross and frees us from the power of any sin.

The third thing that Jesus saves us from is judgment. "Those who believe in Him are not judged, but those who do not believe are already condemned" (John 3: 18). Pavel writes: "Let us be saved by him from wrath" (Rom 5: 9). God is angry at the sins that people commit. By loving the sinner, God hates the sinthat people do. And so, when God is angry, He must hold every person accountable for Judgment. There we must answer for all the things that we have done. And at that Judgment, of course, the face of God will no longer radiate mercy and love. There people will see the God of wrath, who, after reading, so to speak, looking at the life of a person and comparing it with His law, will give a verdict and send a person to eternal torment.

But if we believe in Jesus Christ, we are saved from this Judgment. "Those who believe in Him are not sued... let us be saved by him from wrath, " as Paul confidently writes.

Fourth, what Jesus saves us from. Jesus saves you from death, damnation, and hell.

In the Gospel it is written: "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16). And the wages of sin is death. If we remain in sin without believing in Jesus Christ, then we will surely come to this death not only physically, but also spiritually, eternal death, which is called hell.

Jesus saves us from the punishment of sin, from the future hell that awaits every person if they do not repent.

Now, how does Jesus save? It's also a similar moment, like Eugene's. Jesus saves us by Himself, through His Sacrifice. This text I want to read is the main text I think I wanted to bring in: Salvation is given to us by God through Jesus Christ.

"It is by this will that we are sanctified by the one-time offering of the body of Jesus Christ. And every priest stands daily in service, and repeatedly offers the same sacrifices, which can never destroy sins. But He, having offered one sacrifice for sins, sat down forever at the right hand. God, then waiting until His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are sanctified" (Hebrews 10: 10-14).

Here we are talking about a perfect sacrifice that was once made, and this sacrifice was made by Jesus, Who sacrificed Himself, that is, gave His body to be mocked, beaten, crucified, and killed.

We need to look a little bit at the association of Old Testament victims. There were many different sacrifices, and the sin offering probably stood out in some way. Both the trespasser and other victims. A sin offering, it was necessarily for a person.

If a person wanted to receive forgiveness from God for all the sins that he did in life, what should he do? He was to take a lamb, a calf, if it was poor, take two turtledoves, bring them to the priest, and there the sacrifice was to die.

The priest took the animal, slaughtered it, decanted its blood, laid the animal's body on the altar, set it on fire; a pleasant fragrance went up to God, and God smelled this fragrance, that is, smelled this smoke, and it was pleasant to him.

And the priest brought the blood that was decanted with this sacrifice into the Most Holy Place, into the Tabernacle of the Congregation. Of course, He sprinkled this blood on the altar and on the sinner himself, but here is a very important point. Before this sacrifice could be slaughtered, the sinner had to go to the sacrifice and lay his hands on it. This signified identification, and symbolically the sins were transferred from the sinner to this innocent animal. And this animal, as it were, took the sins of the sinner upon itself and died instead of the sinner. This is why God didn't punish people in the Old Testament.

This, in general, was from the very beginning, even before the establishment of this sacrifice: before Moses, Abel was the first to offer a sacrifice, then Noah after he came out of the ark, offered a sacrifice, and so on.

And all these sacrifices, they could not make perfect in the conscience of a person. Even though he made this sacrifice and stayed alive, he was still tormented by the realization of how many sins he had committed. But the good news is that when Jesus came later, many years after these sacrificial commandments were given, and became the perfect Sacrifice, He took the sins of all mankind upon Himself.

We all laid our hands on Him, so to speak, starting with Adam and Eve and Cain. Cain certainly didn't repent, so I don't think he'll be in Paradise. But all the sinners laid their hands on this perfect Sacrifice. We crucified Christ. You killed, as Peter preached (Acts 2:23), by nailing the hands of the wicked to the Cross of Jesus.

Therefore, it is very important to think about this and believe that Jesus Christ is a substitute Sacrifice for us. It was He who died for us and in our stead. If we believe this with all our heart, then we put our trust in Him, and God imputes this faith to us as righteousness, just as He once imputed it to Abraham, and to everyone who believes in the sacrifice of Christ, God imputes this faith to us as righteousness and justifies us.

How does Jesus save? He saves us with His sacrifice. What other means does God have to bring this salvation to each individual? He saves us through the gospel: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Rom 1:16).

(Comment: Here we are once again contemplating a favorite method of most Baptists, namely, breaking out individual texts from the entire context of the word of God. After all, for salvation, also according to the teaching of Holy Scripture, we also need Baptism (John 3:5), Communion (John 6:53), true faith (Galatians 5: 22), good works (Matthew 25: 31-46), inner spiritual purification (Revelation 21: 27), etc. the pastor calmly kept silent, although, of course, he knew about the existence of these texts).

You need to believe. How can you believe it if you haven't heard it? We also talked about this last time. That is, you need to hear it. And to hear it, you need someone to preach this truth about what God did in Christ, on the Cross.

I would say that the Cross is the center of the universe, it is the center of the Earth. This is the door that opens the possibility for a person to enter Paradise. It is a bridge built over this abyss to connect these two shores-the sinful man and the Holy God.

And so the gospel must be heard. The Lord saves us through human faith. That is, our participation must be, we must believe. When the prison guard asked me what I should do to be saved, the answer was, " Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you and all your householdwill be saved."16:31).

(Comment: There is no doubt that the prison guard was also told about the need for baptism for salvation, since after the sermon he was "immediately baptized" (Acts 1: 16).16:33)).

The right response from a person is faith. And through prayer and penance. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). It will free you from guilt and free you from the power of sin. "Purify" means to actually make a person completely different.

This is repentance, it not only includes the confession of sin, but you need to say something with your mouth. To confess is to tell from within. First we give our sins to the Lord, and then we call on Him for help.

The message says: "Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Rom. If a person is silent, does not confess his sins and does not call on the name of the Lord, he will not be saved. And to hear the gospel, to believe in It, to confess our sins, and to call on the name of the Lord-this is, so to speak, the laying on of hands on the sacrifice that was once offered. That is, if the sinner came up and did not lay his hands, then this identification did not happen and the sins did not pass on to the animal. The animal may then be slaughtered, but it will not die for the sinner. If a person believes that Jesus once died for him, but does not repent and does not call on Him, the Lord, to come, save him, purify him, and dwell in his heart, then the person passes by salvation.

Well, I feel like my time is running out. I want to give an example from medicine. If a person gets sick, a fatal disease, and someone tells him that there is a doctor or surgeon who treats these diseases and performs operations very successfully, then prescribes the appropriate medicine, and many people have already recovered, having turned to this doctor, the person, having this information, what should he do? next? If he says, I believe that this surgeon who lives in another city can heal me and help me, but stays here, then nothing will happen. First of all, he must find the phone number of this surgeon, call him, that is, call him for help, arrange, if he can, to go to him himself, if not, maybe the surgeon will come to his house, and this sometimes happens when a person is already lying down and cannot move.

But you need to make some kind of contact, ask for help and believe that this surgeon will be able to do it. And when a certain day comes, the surgeon says: "Now lie down on the table and trust me completely, I will perform the operation, and you will feel better. This sin that is destroying your soul in you, it will be cleansed." If we trust in Christ in this way, then faith must be marked by trusting in the Lord, placing our full trust in Him.

(Comments: Again, the respected pastor accidentally "forgot" to continue his story in the above analogy in order to bring it to real objectivity. The doctor in this story strictly warned the patient to adhere to the prescribed diet after the operation, drink certain medications specified in the conclusion, monitor his health and do not cool off, otherwise the patient simply will not be able to assimilate the operation performed on him properly and will die. According to the pastor's logic, the patient immediately recovered and ran straight from the operating table healthy and happy, which contradicts reality and common sense).

And here is the Epistle to the Romans, the first eight chapters; you know that there are various epistles in the New Testament, there are paternal epistles, there are more practical epistles, and there are doctrinal ones, and we must base our faith primarily not on historical books, but on doctrinal ones.

So, the Epistle to the Romans, the first eight chapters are pure doctrine (then there is then its practical application), these eight chapters can be divided into three parts and called them like this: "Three O's". The first three chapters are about condemnation, where Paul talks about sin and how God looks at sin, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," it also says.

The fourth and fifth chapters are about justification, "being justified freely by his grace,"and so on. And from the sixth to the eighth is sanctification. Condemnation, justification, and sanctification. And we don't reject any of these parts.

Here it is, man's salvation. First, a person must realize that he is a lost sinner, believe that Christ was condemned for him and in his stead, trust in Christ, precisely in these sufferings and death. Then he must be justified, and through faith this righteousness will be imputed to us, just as it was imputed to Abraham. In the same chapters, in the fourth and fifth of Romans, it is written about this.

And if we have received this justification, then we will live just like the woman who was justified by Christ. They wanted to stone her, she was a harlot, and she deserved hell. But when no one threw a stone at her and Christ said: "and I do not judge you, go, and sin no more,"she did so. She accepted this excuse and went home with a clear conscience, but I don't think she sinned any more. That is, she tried to live a life worthy of her Teacher, her Savior Jesus Christ. In other words, this is already a life of sanctification: concrete steps to prevent sins from entering your life, and those that still exist, to be freed from them and get rid of them. Thanks for attention.

(Comment: The pastor's logic in this passage suggests sanctification, works of piety, and the struggle against sin, not as a requirement of the gospel message, but simply as a voluntary gratitude on the part of the saved person, which, of course, contradicts to the Holy Scripture. The Lord specifically requires specific actions from His servants, as evidenced by the following texts: Mt 5: 20, Rev 21: 8, Mt 5: 30, 1 Corinthians 6: 10, John 3: 5, Rev 3: 15, John 6: 53, etc.)

Discussion of reports

Orthodox: I suggest that we move on to discussing our reports on a general topic. Who has any questions?

Orthodox: First, let's start with the report of Father Eugene, as he was the first speaker. Who has any questions about his report?

Baptist: Dear friends, I would like our brothers to participate more. But my first question is: did you prepare this synopsis before you, Evgeny, or did you develop it earlier?

Orthodox: I wrote this for you.

Baptist: So this is a recent synopsis of yours?

Orthodox: I wrote for you, for the performance.

Baptist: Great, I think this is the best sermonyou'll be able to deliver in your church this coming Sunday. Good job.

Orthodox: So you agree with this?

Baptist: There are some questions.

Orthodox: It was nice to hear the rating, but the main thing is the content.

Baptist: This is a real synopsis, real sermons, if you preach in Russian in a church, not in Church Slavonic. The twentieth century has passed, now in the twenty-first – only in Russian.

Orthodox: Of course, in Russian. They always preached in Russian. Preaching and performing worship and prayers are two different things. That is, the prayers are approved and in most cases unchanged for the whole year.

Baptist: Are they in Slavonic?

Orthodox: They are in Slavonic. And as for the sermon, that is, the interpretationThis is always done orally, and this, of course, is done in Russian. But in view of our professional peculiarities, of course, it happens that we use some outdated words, because they are constantly heard by us. It may be that "for" and "yako" are often used even in Russian, but in principle these are not very complex words. A person has a rough idea of what they are talking about, even if they don't understand it verbatim. And so the sermon is always in Russian.

Baptist: Yes, I even like the interesting word " benevolent charity." It is difficult to express it in Russian – the word "blagoutrobnoe".

Orthodox: Or I really like the word "Existing". In Russian, if you say: "The One Who was, is and will be", and the Church Slavonic word is "Existing", "Sy"

Baptist: I have such a question. Maybe I understood-I didn't understand. Not all are saved, sinners are not saved; depends on the person, on the sinner? The killer doesn't escape, and someone else doesn't escape. Is it the unrepentant who are not saved, or are they not saved at all? That is, even if he repents?

Orthodox: The point, of course,is that a person, being a believer, lives so [sinfully]. The Apostle Paul, you will remember, commanded us not to even eat together. He is called a brother, remains a fornicator, and so on (1 Corinthians 5: 11). Thus, one can formally believe, one can formally be called a brother, and live such an unworthy life. And he is actually excommunicated from God, and will go into eternal torment.

Here is a quote that Sergey gave in his report from the 10th chapter of the Epistle to the Hebrews. If we continue reading this chapter to the end, what can we read in verses 26-27 of the same chapter? "For if we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there is no longer a sacrifice for sins, but a certain dreadful expectation of judgment and the fury of fire that is ready to devour those who oppose us" (Hebrews 10:26-27).

And then these words end with the fact that it is possible to receive a more severe punishment than in the Old Testament, and it is terrible to fall into the hands of the Living God (Hebrews 10:31). That is, we see here that a person could have believed, accepted the perfect sacrifice, but, at the same time, still continue to sin and be awarded an even more severe punishment.

Therefore, of course, here this "perfection", which we were quite rightly told from the text of the apostle, does not refer to my sinlessness, not to complete power over sin, but to the fact that the Lord gives me the power to fight sin, and I can use it or not use it.

This is exactly what we call, among other things, the element of sanctification. But, in turn, the fact that for us sanctification is in the process of salvation, and it means that the grace of God enters into me and works more powerfully in me. And I do not resist it, but I submit to it. Conversely, in the Baptist concept of salvation, I have believed and am already saved, and the Kingdom of Heaven is already guaranteed to me. And sanctification is a kind of bonus, there will be a very pleasant appendage at the end, and new awards and crowns.

Not really. We see that there is no one here, but the expectation of judgment and fierce wrath for the sinner. So, of course, we should talk about the fact that the person is in the process. Remember, here is another (I did not quote, unfortunately, I did not notice this passage in my notes) The Lord promises: "Not everyone who says to Me,' Lord, Lord, 'that is, who believes, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 7: 21). He speaks of wide gates and narrow gates (Matthew 7: 13-14).

So, of course, it is easy to say that I have believed and have already been saved. But even you told us last time that you had people in your community who believed, were baptized, then committed grave sins and were excommunicated from communion. So it's not enough to say: "Lord, Lord" is not enough to repent. There is a certain mystery of man's will and God's Providence. We must believe and watch, pray, and work out our salvation with fear (Philippians 2: 12). And the Lord, seeing our vigil and fear, enters into us, acts in us mightily.

Baptist: If you have a person receiving baptism, no matter how it works or doesn't work, does he become a church member? Or did you say that you later joined the church, like this?

Orthodox: This is an active life in the Church.

Baptist: Let's look at it this way, if he gets baptized by you, and then he commits a murder or something, then he's already lost forever?

Orthodox: We need repentance. We have the Sacrament of Confession, which is the second baptism, the second washing of conscience. And the Lord forgives, seeing the conversion of the sinner. The person has sinned, realized, repented, and the priest has testified, because he has the power to resolve these sins.

Baptist: That is, these sins are removed from him? I heard from the report that he was dying altogether.

Orthodox: No, but I couldn't cover everything at once. The point is that a person remains in these sins and does not want to repent of them and correct himself. If he wants to, but still falls into these sins, he still remains in them and remains a sinner again. If he fights against sin, overcomes sin, then, of course, it should not be about the fact that he is now a sinner, but about the fact that he is a penitent sinner. This is a different situation. So, look, it was justly said about the confession. Confession removes [sins] from a person if he repents and receives permission from the successor of the apostle.

As the Lord says, He gives the power to forgive sins: to whom he forgives, they will be forgiven; to whom he leaves, they will remain (John 20: 23). So, the priest forgives sins, and the Lord also forgives грехa person's sin and gives him the strength to fight. But if he slyly, hypocritically approaches confession, wishing to continue the sin, then, of course, he expects the fury of fire, as the apostle says.

Baptist: Why classification? Are there any sins that don't need to be confessed, or what? Do you have a classification? You mentioned several sins as an example.

Orthodox: I happened to be running through some non-exhaustive Scripture quotes. Unfortunately, time is limited. There are several lists of deadly sins, such as 1 Corinthians 6: 9-10 or Galatians 5:19-21, where the apostle lists the list of sins, and those that "those who do this will not inherit the kingdom of God" (Galatians 5: 21).

Orthodox: Here is 1 John 5: 16-17: "There is a sin that leads to death: I do not say that he should pray. All unrighteousness is sin; but it is a sin not unto death."

Orthodox: The apostle divides sins to death and not to death. Therefore, when a mortal sin is committed and a person remains in it, then it is not even worth praying for it, according to the apostle. And if he repents, then we must pray for him, so that God will help.

Baptist: What is this mortal sin?

Orthodox: But it's not obvious from the text. It is not obvious from this text, but from other parallel passages that I have outlined, that some sins absolutely exclude a person from the Kingdom of God.

Baptist: Any sin excommunicates from the Kingdom of God, any sin. It doesn't matter which one.

(Comment: I wonder how the position of the pastor changes in this place. Here he contradicts both himself and his flock. He has repeatedly stated the opposite in past conversations: that minor sins are insignificant and do not prevent the Holy Spirit from being in them at all, and therefore do not separate them from God and His Kingdom).

Orthodox: You've got me a little confused. That is, in your opinion, if I said an idle word, and then did not do it again, I was always attentive, then I will not enter the Kingdom of God?

Baptist: It is the same with another sin – first I did it, then I repented.

Orthodox: I will give an account to God for him on the Day of Judgment, for an idle word. But if a fornicator or an adulterer, or a heretic, for example, then such a person, according to the apostle, will definitely not enter.

Baptist: No, but if he lets go of this sin, confesses it...

Orthodox: If he professes correctly. Not just me and God personally, but personally I am both God and the mediator who has been given authority from the apostle to this day.

Baptist: That is, if you confess sins of any nature, they are removed?

Orthodox: If a priest forgives a sin, he may not.

Baptist: Well, what about the priest? He doesn't care if he takes confession, he's...

Orthodox: I don't have to do anything. This is a matter of my power and conscience.

Baptist: If the priest leaves the sin to the confessor, then it will remain on him?

Orthodox: This is rarely the case. But if it happens, for some very important reason, then yes.

Orthodox: Well, let's say I can give an example from practice when a person repented of a sin, but during a conversation, during confession, he confessed that he was not going to leave this sin. This is a common place. I now repent of this, I understand that this is a sin, but I will not change it, and then there are some reasons for it. And I explain to him that, you see, if you are in such a state, then there is no point in even allowing me to forgive your sin, you are still in it. That is, you consciously do not want to leave it. Then you just have to realize it and sincerely repent, and not just accept that I live incorrectly. It's like everyone lives like this, and I'll continue to live like this.

Orthodox: I wanted to ask you something about my report. How do you feel about my idea that the way of salvation is unchangeable in the New Testament? As in the time of the apostles, so today and beyond.

Baptist: We fully support this.

Orthodox: It is very important. Because many people believe that something is different under the apostles, and something is different now. Well, for example, in the time of the apostles, there was no such thing at first.The Holy Scriptures, and now there is the Holy Scriptures. This changes the path of salvation. Or there were no modern super-communications under the apostles, but now there are. This changes the path of salvation.

Baptist: Absolutely not.

Orthodox: It's very good that you don't think so. In this case, the teaching that the apostles offered, both orally and in writing, the practice of the church that was in the time of the apostles, the one that we see and that Tradition has conveyed to us, they are the guiding principles for us. Here's the thing.

Let's say the practice of baptism. We have already discussed this with you, that baptism should be unchangeable, continuous, from the apostles to the present day. And you said what's wrong with you.

Or, for example, church teaching. Were the apostles church teachers? Absolutely! They had the right and authority to teach from the Lord. And they were sent to Them. Do the apostles set up their own successor teachers?

Baptist: Yes.

Orthodox: Of course, it shows again. Moreover, Timothy is commanded to teach those who are able to teach others. That is, yes, the system of succession should be in the church's teaching. And this is a teaching that is obvious to everyone. And when Christ is judged, He says, "Why do you ask me, ask those who have heard" (John 18:21). That is, it is a public teaching. Thus, it was public under Christ, under the apostles, and remained so in the future. And this public teaching must be unchangeable and continuous.

Baptist: And this is the teaching that the apostles, their successors, and all subsequent generations have preserved without distortion...

Orthodox: That's right!

Baptist: They wrote it all down, and it's all called the New Testament. Holy Scripture, Holy Gospel. That's what we recognize. This is the continuity that has passed down to us from the first centuries. And they brought us the gospel, which is called the New Testament

Orthodox: This is not found in the New Testament text. It does not say: what Christ and the apostles said to us is written in the New Testament; and what we did not say or write down is not in the New Testament. That's not so. We found out that the apostles had an oral sermon and texts. And in our time, too.

Baptist: Well, you think there's a lot more information that can be considered sacred. And we Baptists believe that only 27 books of the New Testament, here it is, are Holy Scripture.

Orthodox: I don't want to argue. I'm talking about something else. That the system of teaching transmission in the Apostolic era was not limited to reading the books of the New Testament. And we found out that salvation is continuous and unchangeable. Therefore, just as under the apostles, not only the reading of books, but also in our time, is a system of continuous church teaching, because the Church always remains identical with itself.

Baptist: At the end of your report, you said (I wanted to clarify) that for salvation it is necessary to be in the Body of Christ.

Orthodox: Yes, absolutely, that's right.

Baptist: That is, it is a criterion, it is an important, key point. And to me, it sounded like the rescue was happening collectively. That is, not everyone is responsible for himself in the matter of salvation, but entering the Church, the Body of Christ – is the criterion of salvation. Did it sound like that?

Orthodox: I'm glad you heard this and understood it. I'll clarify the accents a bit, but in general the idea is correct. Here we must understand that baptism, as you have already understood, does not automatically save, but rather baptism and entry into the Body of the Church. Therefore, it is not a question of being baptized and already being saved with certainty, but of being baptized and entering the Body of the Church, and being a member of the Body of the Church, I can inherit salvation. Not by itself, but as part of the Body of the Church. My Head is Christ. The grace of God fills the Body of the Church, giving me and everyone else the strength to fulfill the commandments of God and keep the faith, and increase this faith. But the most important thing is that I am not saved in such a way that there is only me and my friend Jesus, I believed, He saved me, and now I am a joyful and exultant child of God. No. I have come to believe, I have entered the Church, I eat and listen to church teaching, I listen to the pastors of the Church. But most importantly, it is only in so far as I am a member of the Church that the Lord saves me, if I am worthy of salvation. Was I able to explain my point?

Baptist: If I am worthy of salvation?

Orthodox: Yes, of course. From the examples that I have outlined, for example, I did not become a fornicator, I did not become a murderer, I did not lose my faith, and so on. Plus, I didn't incline inwardly to impurity: I didn't become a whoremonger, but I constantly look at a woman with lust, I didn't become, say, a murderer, but I get angry with everyone all the time – this should not be in me either. If I have it in me, then I struggle with it in myself. And I fight by the power of God, which overcomes all sin. If this is the case, then I am saved, but again not by myself, but as a part of the Body of the Church.

Baptist: I didn't hear about such a concept as grace in your report.

Orthodox: I've talked about it many times

Baptist: At what point does grace begin to work, or how does it continue to work in the person who is saved, so to speak, or who is being saved?

Orthodox: If we call grace the power of God, will you argue with that?

Baptist: By the power of God, well, in a way, maybe yes.

Orthodox: Quite right, in a sense. Not in every way, but in some way. And this power of God, does it exist in a Christian?

Baptist: Naturally.

Orthodox: You see, you agree that grace exists and acts and sanctifies the Christian.

Baptist: Then there are these words: "by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not of you, but a gift from God... that no one may boast" (Ephesians 2: 8-9).

Orthodox: Yes.

Baptist: The Apostle Paul says, "By grace you are saved,"that is, it is already a fact accomplished. That is, grace is necessary, necessary for a person to be saved at all. And grace, in another place, in Titus, it says: "Teaching us that we should reject ungodliness and worldly lusts, and live chaste, just, and godly lives in this world "(Titus 2: 12). That is, it is necessary, necessary in order to start the path of salvation at all, right? By grace you are saved. And it is necessary in order to continue this path with the grace that teaches us. Hence another question...

Orthodox: Can I answer the first question first?

Baptist: Yes.

Orthodox: I'll start with the first quote, it's the brightest one, you know. I think it will be good to deal with it now, and in context. So this is Ephesians 2: 8. We all know the text well. How to understand it? I think to understand it, you need to start reading it in context. From the beginning of the second chapter, or better yet, from the end of the first. Why from the end of the first one? Because at the end of the first chapter, the apostle says that Christ stands " above all things, the head of the Church, which is His Body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all." (Ephesians 1: 22-23). Clearly, there is nothing more complete than that. The Church is the Body. So, we are saved precisely in the composition of the Body, what was said. And so on. Now, it would seem, after the words about the Church, it would be necessary to say about the one who fills the Church – that very fullness. And he says, " You who are dead in your trespasses and sins "(Ephesians 2: 1). That is, he starts with what you were like outside the Church. And he speaks of original (Adam's) sin. So we are before Christ, outside of Christ, dead in trespasses and sins, lived in them, lived according to the will of the prince who rules in the air, that is, the devil, and were the sons of disobedience. And he worked in us while we were outside of Christ. It's all in the text.

And, as the apostle goes on to say: "they lived according to the lusts of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3). "By nature". That is, at my very birth I had this original sin in me, and by nature God was angry with me, I was a child of wrath. That is, I was partly a child of the devil, a son of disobedience, and partly a child of wrath, an object of God's wrath.

And so on: "God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which he loved us" (Ephesians 2: 4). This we remember, it is said about what God does before my deed – the economy of God. "And when we were dead in trespasses," he repeats, "He made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved), and raised us up together with Him, and made us sit in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:5-6).

For now, let's put an ellipsis and think about it. So, it turns out that I am already, judging by what is written, not only made alive with Christ, and not only saved – it is already said, "by grace you are saved"– but I am already risen, I am already in heaven. Well, so in the text...

Clearly, this is not the case! I am glad that you are already in heaven, but I see that you are sitting with me, and you are very nice people and have bodies, as we see.

Baptist: Because Christ is there, and we are in Christ.

Orthodox: I literally read what I've written. That is, if we literally read that I have already been saved by grace, then I am just as literally now in heaven. But it is clear that I am not in Heaven. Hence we speak of a potential sojourn in heaven; as you correctly told me just now, it is in Christ, but in me it is only promised. I am the heir to this. Therefore, just as I am potentially in heaven, as I am potentially resurrected (physically I am not yet resurrected), and only hope for resurrection, so the fullness of salvation is potentially in me.

And so on: "to make manifest in the ages to come (see, this point is confirmed – "in the ages to come") the abounding riches of his grace are in his goodness to us in Christ Jesus "(Ephesians 2: 7). Then the same thought repeats itself: "for by grace you have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8). Just said that "by grace you are saved,"now says: "through faith." That is, it is clear that through faith, we must assimilate the economy by accepting It. What will happen next, he has not yet said.

It's just below zero right now. "You have been saved through faith; this is not of you, but the gift of God" (Ephesians 2: 8). That is, he insists that even faith itself is not my merit, but that God, He touches my heart, and in this heart there is a desire to accept salvation. And then: "Not from works, so that no one may boast" (Ephesians 2: 9) - justly, because when I am called by God, there is nothing good in me yet. I am a child of wrath and a child of the devil, but yet God loves me in spite of this. And then: "For we are His handiwork, created in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:10). And when was I created in Christ Jesus? "When I was baptized." This is the new birth, the new creation. "For the good works which God has appointed us to do" (Ephesians 2: 10). So it is God's will that I do good works. What if I resist God? Here I was baptized, I believed, and then I begin to resist God. I say: I do not want to do good deeds, I will not help my neighbors, I will not pray, I will not turn away from women, I will look and desire with my heart all uncleanness...

Baptist: So he wasn't born?

Orthodox: In your opinion, I was not born, but in my opinion, anyone can sin. And you and I are one of them. That is, we can have good wishes, and then over time, somehow through weakness, through negligence, even fall into serious sins.

So here, I think, it's not just about the fact that I'm already saved and everything is in order, but it's about the fact that yes, Christ has done everything. He gave me everything I needed to save myself. Yes, He even introduced me to the Church, gave me all the pledges necessary for salvation. But of course I don't have the fullness, because I have to do the will of God. And then what He promises me in the ages to come, and in the ages to come "the riches of His grace abound,"will be fulfilled.

If I misinterpreted it, I'm ready to listen.

Baptist: In the New Testament, we often find such a concept as" new creation", that is, in Christ something new happened in a person when he believed, with the help of grace something changed in him. It's not the same as it was. The Apostle Paul, for example, says: "he that is in Christ is a new creation" (2 Corinthians 5:17). In my understanding, when a person receives this grace and salvation, his way of life changes, his worldview, what is inside him, in his heart, and so on, his actions, respectively. That is, he acts in accordance with this new nature. And in this connection, we say that the essence of salvation is that when a person is saved, everything changes. Yes, he is sinning, but his new nature does not leave him alone. God continues to work, and man follows the path of sanctification. In this sense, we say: "by grace you are saved... not from business, so that no one can boast... for we are His creation "(Ephesians 2: 8-10). This point occurred in a person's life, and now he feels and understands himself as a new creation in Christ. By the way, it also says here: "a new creation is in It." In union with Christ, he now goes and tries to live as the Lord and Mother tell us to live.The Holy Scriptures.

Orthodox: I am glad that you admit this, because in the report it was announced that the power of sin is no longer over the believer, and you say that sin works, we sin... If there is no power of sin, how do we sin?

Baptist: In many texts it is written that the power of sin does not work as it used to, that something has changed...

Orthodox: What matters here is when and at what point it changed... Moment of change...

Baptist: It is precisely the attitude towards sin that has changed. When a person believed in the sacrifice of Christ, when he accepted the sacrifice of Christ, then God poured out grace on him, and he received salvation. Again, you have it a little different...

Orthodox: Yes, because for us birth is according to the word of Christ. He who is not born of water and the Spirit cannot enter the kingdom of God. This is the birth. Everything that comes before this is God's calling, my faith, it precedes birth. And the birth itself is supposed to be in baptism.

Baptist: Along with this new man, the Apostle Paul says that we are children of God. Have we already become one or not? Sometimes I translate Bible truth into life, for example, for parents and children. Here I have children, I am a father to them; they sometimes do wrong, sin, but they do not cease to be my children. It is the same in the relationship with Christ: something has changed, at some point it has changed that He is my Father.

The Apostle Paul says: "The spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God" (Rom.8:16). And the Spirit testifies to me that I am a child of God. I understand that I have a different status now, I want to serve God with joy and love. Not to sin, but to serve Him as a Father, out of love for Him. This is the essence of salvation, this is the essence of the change in my heart. And yes, I certainly do sin, just as a disobedient child sometimes does, and God punishes, so the Epistle to the Hebrews says that if God does not punish, then we are "illegitimate children, not sons" (Hebrews 12: 8).

That is, if God does not punish you in any way for some things, then we are not sons. But just because He punishes me doesn't mean He rejects me. On the contrary, He loves me when He punishes me so that I turn away from some sins in my life. That is, this attitude is changing. Do you have this understanding that we are children of God?

Orthodox: It's simple – to be a child, you have to be born. And you can only be born through baptism, we have already found out.

Baptist: If you are all baptized, can you say for yourself that "I am a child of God"?

Orthodox: Definitely.

Orthodox: You can, but in the context of this discussion, I have a question. When I listened to you carefully, I came up with the same question that we are now discussing. I found the first part of the report unsymmetrical, when you talked about what the Lord saves people from, and the second part, how He does it.

It seemed to me (I might have misunderstood) that most of what the Lord saves us from is psychological moments.

That is, the purification of conscience, getting rid of feelings of guilt, is a psychological moment. And the last part there only concerned the soul. That is, it turns out that the Lord made such a sacrifice, in such a terrible way, and this sacrifice is priceless, the greatest sacrifice that could ever be made. At the same time, it turns out that such a huge, let's say, energy spent on this, leads only to a psychological moment for a person.

But if you keep in mind the psychological moment, then you can calm your conscience, as we know, and in other ways, which are now a million. And psychologists, and some mantras, meditations – anything. I have a question. When I was listening to you, I wanted to ask you a question. What does the Lord deliver you from? He cleanses the soul, and then (you said) the path of sanctification begins.

The question is that ontologically, that is, by human nature, how did the Lord save us by His grace? Is this a one-time thing, or is it a way of salvation? And what does it consist in, since you say "the way of sanctification", it continues throughout the life of a Christian?

If so, if it continues, then the question is, how does it act on its own? Without the participation of the person himself?

Baptist: I have said that Christ saves us from guilt, from the power of sin. Before repentance, a person smoked, drank, fornicated, believed in the sacrifice of Christ, came to the Cross of Calvary, looked at His wounds, believed in the power of the Blood of Christ, repented and received liberation. And he stopped smoking, drinking, fornicating, and so on.

Orthodox: We talked about the power of sin.

Baptist: This is the power of sin. That is, man was a slave to sin, and now he is free.

Orthodox: Is it still valid or not?

Baptist: I'll tell you now. Christ saves us from judgment, from the wrath of God, and from punishment, that is, from eternal hell.

These are the great moments that we have named. Now look at this. Condemnation. Man lives far away from Christ, from God. The cross does not see Christ. He does not come to Christ. He's a lost sinner. And at the trial, he will not be able to justify himself there, he will go to hell.

Now he has heard, reflected, felt guilty, understood that it is necessary to go to Christ, believed in the sacrifice of Christ, and now he is coming here. Here he kneels, humbles himself, and his pride is crushed. He sees Christ as a substitute sacrifice. He accepts all this by faith, then gives up all his sins to the Lord, as if laying his hands on Him, and gives it all to Christ.

Here he receives forgiveness of sins, is freed from guilt. Here he gets an excuse, because a sacrifice has already been made for him, Others, he himself does not need to die. Here he receives the original sanctification, that is, sanctification is purification.

Orthodox: Is it complete or partial?

Baptist: When I say that a person is freed from the power of sin, I mean from living in sin, but original sin remains.

Sin, like the old Adam, like sinful flesh, still remains in man.

But look, from this moment on, when a person repents, gives up his sins to the Lord, and accepts Christ's sacrifice by faith, it is as if he opens his spiritual heart and lets the Lord in. Then he receives the grace of salvation. And this grace, this is the presence of the Holy Spirit. Because "because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying,' Abba, Father!' (Galatians 4: 6); it is from the moment of repentance and faith that the new birth takes place, at the Cross of Calvary.

And man, having received the Holy Spirit, was born again. Now this grace of the Holy Spirit is always with him. No, the Holy Spirit can go away if a person falls away from God, departs from Him. And this initial sanctification, as a cleansing from all sins, already takes place at the moment of repentance.

And then, becoming a child of God, he is small, he is a baby, like "new-born babies, love pure and verbal milk" (1 Peter 2: 2). And this spiritual growth from birth to glory, until a person enters Paradise, this is called spiritual growth or sanctification.

And here the cooperation of man with God is very important. Why is it easy for us to live as people freed from the power of sin, why is it easy to overcome sins, why do we not want to drink, commit fornication, smoke, and so on? Because there is a new law within us.

(Remark. This is an interesting sectarian phenomenon. Let us note what sins the Baptist enumerates: fornication, drunkenness, smoking, etc. - that is, external vices, and at the same time he is completely silent about the internal vices of the soul, which are much worse and more severe than the physical ones. Let's give the floor to Saint Ephraim the Syrian: "Since the soul is incomparably higher than the body, so the vices of the soul are more severe and pernicious than those of the body, although I do not know why this escapes the understanding of many. Drunkenness, fornication, theft, and similar vices, such as those that many people beware of, fear, and avoid, but look with indifference at vices that are far more important than spiritual ones-envy, resentment, arrogance, deceit, and the root of all evil – avarice." This is a common practice of the majority of Protestants. The leadership sharpens its adherents to create visible piety and with cold indifference does not care about their inner state. Such a person outwardly looks pious and pious (moreover, he often directly and universally declares this!!), but inside he is often filled with sinister pride, envy and all sorts of impurity. The Lord himself once rebuked such people (Matthew 23: 25). As a consequence of this approach, the spiritual state becomes appropriate).

Romans 8: "And so there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, not living according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death" (Romans 8: 1-2). Before man believed, before he was born again, he had one law in him, the law of sin and death. Now the Holy Spirit and the power of grace have settled there, the power of the Holy Spirit is the law of the spirit of life. The law of the spirit of life frees us from the law of sin and death. Liberating in what way? Neutralizes that law and makes it inactive. That is, it continues to operate, but in a much smaller force. This law of the spirit of life is much higher. Well, a very simple example. A bird flies through the air. Why doesn't it fall? The earth's gravity pulls it down, but it doesn't fall. But when it will fly for a long time, it will then fall, why is this happening? Because the force of life that is in the bird is stronger than the law of gravity. Or the energy that is in the plane, through gasoline, through engines, it keeps the plane going. But if the gas runs out, the engines will stall, and that's all-the plane will fall. In the same way, if we have received the Holy Spirit, this law of the spirit of life has freed us from the law of sin and death.

As long as we are nourished by God, as you said, abiding in God, in Christ, this is deification, so to speak, as long as we live according to the spirit, and not according to the flesh, the law of sin and death does not work in us. Somewhere out there in our flesh there are some sinful passions, but they are all overcome by the law of the spirit of life. And in this state, you need to stay and constantly communicate with God, grow, bear this spiritual fruit, and everything will be fine.

Orthodox: Wait, I'm confused with you, can I clarify? I'm completely confused. You say (both of you) that the law of sin does not work, but it does. We do not sin, but some sin even with grave sins. But We are excommunicating them, which means that they disbelieved. But they thought they believed, and we thought we believed, but we did not believe.

Don't you think there's a set of contradictions here?

Baptist: "If you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the spirit you put to death the works of the flesh, you will live" (Rom.8:13).

Orthodox: I agree with you. It's about something else. Is sin working or not working in you?

Baptist: It works, but very weakly. The power of the Holy Spirit works in us, which is stronger, so we don't go and commit these sins. And as soon as some lust in my flesh manifests itself, the law of the spirit of life immediately works – I understand: This is a sin, this I will not do, this is not pleasing to the Lord. There is always this struggle.

Orthodox: That is, you have a struggle, you have sin, but you also have the power to fight it.

Baptist: And the power to defeat it. Authority from the Holy Spirit.

Orthodox: You have mentioned the Holy Spirit more than once, and I am very glad that it sounds like it, because it often happens that Baptists reduce the work of the Holy Spirit only to the interpretation of Scripture. But you talk about the power of the Spirit of God, and that's good. But here's what confuses me here. I understand how this is happening here. We believe that God is fundamentally different from us. God is a spiritual Being, and we are soul-corporeal, but at the same time we are created beings. And God is an uncreated Being. And so, of course, the nature of God cannot fully enter me. God is above me.

But we know that God has His own power, or grace, or glory, or energy, or whatever you want to call it. That which is near God. Something He'd never been denied. I've never been without Wisdom, without power, etc., without authority. And it is this power that enters me, and it changes me.

As in the Son of God: He was the Son of God and the Son of Man. And because He was a Man, He needed to be strengthened by the power of God. And God dwelt in Him, and by His power He overcame death, among other things. So this humanity has been assimilated in the fullness of God. This was His humanity.

I am not so, I am not the Son of God by nature, but at the same time God also strengthens me to my full extent.

This is the Power of God. But if Baptists believe that God is only an Entity that has nothing but an Entity, then how can God work in man?

Baptist: No, we believe that God is the Power, the Holy Spirit is the Power that is within us. You say that God cannot enter into us, settle down. Of course, God fills the entire universe, but in the Epistle to the Corinthians it is written: "he who unites himself to the Lord is one spirit with the Lord" (1 Corinthians 6:17).

Orthodox: Then I am God by nature.

Baptist: In my understanding, the human spirit – which was dead in sins, in trespasses; from the moment when the Holy Spirit enters us, It enters our heart, penetrates our soul and enters our spirit. Spirit, soul and body. Now, the union of the Holy Spirit with the human spirit is the merging into one spirit. This is the birth of a new person. The Holy Spirit and my spirit, now there is no my spirit and the Holy Spirit, it is one spirit. And this is the new creation. This is a new person. If now my soul is guided by the Spirit, by the Holy Spirit Who is there, and my spirit grows, then my soul is in humility.

Orthodox: The obvious question immediately arises: if, as you say, the Holy Spirit enters into you, and He is united in fullness with your spirit, then, of course, as the Lord says, you need to do the works of God, that is, to show the power of God: to do the works of healing or raising the dead, and so on. But this is not the case.

Baptist: Because the soul is still defiled by sin. There is also, so to speak, a residual phenomenon of sin or the roots of sin in the soul, especially in the body. And we need to win all this. Therefore...

Orthodox: So, there is no full connection...

Baptist: In the spirit there is, in the soul not quite yet. We still need to grow spiritually.

Orthodox: But the spirit, it also dominates the soul.

Baptist: And the body, in general, always wants only to commit sin.

Orthodox: That is a complete dissonance.

Baptist: But the body obeys the soul and spirit. And we do not live according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. And so we do not commit a conscious sin or an arbitrary one. There is an arbitrary sin or a conscious one. We try not to commit a conscious, arbitrary sin.

Orthodox: Are we trying or not doing it?

Baptist: That's when we try, then we don't do it.

Orthodox: And when we don't try, then we sin. So I say, we must keep vigil and pray.

Baptist: And when we're not awake, we'll pick up the phone and go to some page, and bang! And then the chastisement of the Holy Spirit.

Orthodox: Here it is! How good! You see! Every time, for the second time, I come to the conclusion that we have a lot in common. Look, you are actually ready to agree with the Orthodox teaching about deification. With the fact that God is not only an Entity, but also a Divine Energy that can connect with us. With the fact that we can become partakers of God's Nature, according to the Apostle Peter.

Baptist: I don't know much about this topic of deification. I was interested in learning more about it.

Orthodox: The fact that we can become partakers of God's nature, according to the Apostle Peter, because the Spirit enters into you...

Baptist: We already have. We only need to grow.

(Comment: The deified Baptist is something new. But the statement is very rash. Please note that in the previous remark, the head pastor said that he was completely unfamiliar with this teaching and could not speak unequivocally about it, but a friend always has his own "revelation" for each case, and he knows for sure that they are deified. At the next meeting, by the way, another leader of this Baptist community expressed a third opinion and categorically stated that deification "has nothing to do with the Biblical teaching, and whoever thinks otherwise, they taught him poorly" (well, in other words, he is a complete ignoramus). Thus, we again see three different opinions on the subject under discussion. Therefore, the statement of the exclaiming Baptist that they have already become partakers of the Divine nature (that is, deified) is refuted by his own brethren, not to mention the Orthodox).

Orthodox: Excellent, I am very happy for you: you have a lot of elements of Orthodox teaching included in you. But we assume that all this happens by virtue of the Sacraments that are taught to us, enter into us, and act, and we do not resist them and are obedient. And you do it by pure faith. And now I see in the apostolic period (we talked about the immutability of salvation), in the apostolic period I see the Sacraments again. I also see faith as an antecedent to the Sacrament, certainly faith as a condition for receiving the Sacrament, but I also see the Sacrament. But I see only faith as an initial stage. But I don't hear the mechanism of receiving grace. Here's what's confusing me.

Baptist: Faith, "that we may receive the promised Spirit by faith "(Galatians 3: 14).

Orthodox: Faith is a condition. This is all clear. Here I'll explain what I mean. Now I will ask a number of questions, and you will tell me whether I understand correctly or incorrectly. I see you in front of me – a man, a reasonable man, a believer, a Baptist. Right?

Baptist: Right.

Orthodox: Does this mean that with these words that you agreed with, I deny that you were a child, your mother gave birth to you, breastfed you once, you were not intelligent, you did not know how to speak? Do I deny it?

Baptist: No.

Orthodox: I certainly don't deny it, although I don't say it directly. That is, it turns out that when the apostle speaks about faith, he speaks as if at once about everything (as I called you an adult, a reasonable person), and implies the rest. But in reality, not in this text, but in the fullness of the apostolic teaching, we see faith as a condition for receiving the Sacraments, we see the way of entering, that is, we see Baptism, we see Communion, and we see remission of sins through Confession again. And for some reason, you only say that you are an adult, reasonable, and as if you were not a child.

Baptist: That's just the faith and the Sacraments you're talking about. Here is a man sitting in prison. Someone came and brought him the New Testament, Gideon's or any other, or Orthodox, for example. We have the same Word of God. He's on a life sentence, or a twenty-year sentence. He picked up the New Testament from the nightstand and began to read. He read, read, read, and everything became clear to him. He believed that Jesus died for him. He immediately confessed, repented, asked for forgiveness, and prayed to God. The priests don't come, everything is closed, but he has the Word of God. And he believed. And did not live to see his release. He got a heart attack and died. Will he be in Heaven?

Orthodox: Can I answer with a Scriptural example?

Baptist: Yes.

Orthodox: Let me take an even more radical example. Not a country where there are many believers, where you can ask a priest to come, where you can ask God to arrange a meeting with a priest or someone else, but a country where there are no believers at all, where you can't hear the Word of God. We'll take the Ethiopian eunuch. There is not a single true believer, and he even comes to worship in a foreign country. And so, having true faith, looking for the way of salvation and roughly understanding where he is, he is such that God miraculously sends him an apostle who personally at this moment, as reading a specific verse, is the very unique verse with which to begin; Philip meets him, preaches to him, not for very long note that it is enough to set his heart aflame with the apostolic word, " This is the water that hinders me from being baptized "(Acts 8: 36). What happens next? He is baptized, Philip is enraptured by an Angel, and the eunuch continues on his way.

Baptist: By the way, Philip was not an apostle, so the Ethiopians misunderstood and did not accept everything.

Orthodox: He was a deacon. Quite right, the Samaritans did not receive the Holy Spirit. He was a deacon, one of the seven, so he doesn't lay hands. And God Himself miraculously sends the Holy Spirit to descend on the eunuch. But the main thing is that baptism is performed by a person who is also baptized. We have already said that to teach baptism, one must be baptized. Do you agree with this?

Baptist: Yes.

Orthodox: Unlike John Smith.

Baptist: And if Philip didn't come after all? There was no opportunity.

Orthodox: Here is the word "if" and "if what"? You have it in your original question, and now you are arguing with the book of Acts.

Baptist: Because there are such cases. If a person is on a life sentence, and no one will ever be allowed to see him, especially such a regime, and he just reads the Gospel, and believes, and dies. Or the robber on the cross. He was in communion with Christ, but he did not partake of any Sacraments.

Orthodox: And he was a Jew, circumcised.

Baptist: Is he in Heaven or not?

Orthodox: Yes, of course. He's circumcised. He died before Pentecost. The way a Jew enters into a covenant with God is through circumcision.

Baptist: How do we know it's a Jew? Maybe it was a pagan.

Orthodox: Oh, come on! If it's Scriptural...

Baptist: My point is that salvation exists even without entering the Church.

Orthodox: I heard it.

Baptist: A person can repent and enter Paradise directly, through faith in the sacrifice of Christ, through reading the Gospel. And there will be millions of them. And those who have been ecclesiastical, many will be in hell.

Orthodox: This is understandable.

Baptist: And the Baptists will be in hell. The ones that were false Baptists that we baptized, and then it turned out they weren't regenerated. They'll all be in hell.

Orthodox: So, the example of the eunuch, after all, is not an illusory example, but a real one. If a person is looking for ways of salvation, God will give him salvation. And the life convict will be granted an amnesty ahead of time or something else. Absolutely, if he is looking for it, he asks for it. How does the Lord speak? Ask and it will be given to you; push and it will be opened (Matthew 7: 7). If he has read it, realized that he is already saved and that there is no need to look for anything else, and died with this hope, then, of course, he did not ask for baptism and did not receive baptism.

Moreover, see what happens next... But you are asking for your sins to be forgiven?

Baptist: At the time I was repenting, I was about 16 years old, and I asked the Lord for forgiveness for all the sins I had committed since I was born.

Orthodox: This is understandable.

Baptist: I immediately thanked him, accepting by faith that He forgives me. Because it's written that way, its a promise: "He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9).

Orthodox: I understood.

Baptist: And now I repent for my current sins.

Orthodox: I understood. Good. You understand that our sins separate us from God. But you ask that the Lord will not punish you for these sins and grant you salvation, despite your sins?

Baptist: I thank you for saving me, but I regret that I am not always an obedient son.

Orthodox: So it turns out that the Lord says: "ask, and it will be given to you,"and you are not asking for salvation now. And we keep asking. And to whom is salvation closer?

Baptist: And I constantly thank and cherish this salvation. And I try not to lose it. But not in the sense that I woke up in the morning and there is no escape. And in order not to give up this salvation with your life – in this sense.

Orthodox: Can I ask you a question? We're just beating around the bush. I would like you to tell me directly about the relationship between faith and works. Did I understand you correctly when you said that deeds are just an act of gratitude to God and nothing more? And without works, you can be saved? This is the first question.

Baptist: Without cases, you can be saved. Not without works, but man, as it were, lives in this salvation. Deeds are proof of salvation.

Orthodox: Don't you think that this contradicts theThe Holy Scriptures? You say that doing things is just an act of gratitude. And you say that a person can be saved without works. Right? For example, in the Bible we find many texts that say that salvation involves certain works. Romans 10 says that "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" (Romans 10:9). That is, it is clear that in order to be saved, one must also confess Jesus as Lord.

In another passage, Luke 9 says, "If anyone is ashamed of me in this adulterous and sinful generation, I will also be ashamed of him when I come in my glory with the holy angels" (Luke 9:26). Again, this is not just an act of gratitude, but here the Lord clearly gives certain criteria, certain commands that a person must fulfill in order to be saved. That is, he should not just believe, be grateful for some things, and so on, but do specific things.

Baptist: Probably, it is necessary to distinguish the concept of what "business" means.

Orthodox: The Scripture says that a person who wants to be saved should also confess Jesus as Lord and not be ashamed of His words.

Baptist: Amen.

Orthodox: Be baptized. "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mark 16:16). That is, again: I am not baptized because I am grateful to God, this is a clear command of God.

Baptist: Can I answer the question with a question?

Orthodox: No, I need to answer it.

Baptist: I'm responding. Is there faith without works at all, faith, real faith?

Orthodox: Well, of course not.

Baptist: Then what kind of faith are we talking about now?

Orthodox: Here!

Baptist: When God told Noah to build the ark, it was the ark of salvation, the passage from the antediluvian to the post-Flood period.

Orthodox: Absolutely, right, yes.

Baptist: So Noah believed God. What did he do or not do?

Orthodox: Did. Naturally, I did.

Baptist: What did he do?

Orthodox: He built the ark, he preached.

Baptist: Here's how you can put these cases in one word?

Orthodox: Works of faith.

Baptist: Obedience to God. Obedience. He did everything God told him to do. God gave him the blueprint, God gave him everything.

Orthodox: What if he didn't?

Baptist: He just wouldn't have built this ark. Now we look: when Noah entered the ark, was he saved?

Orthodox: From what?

Baptist: From the flood.

Orthodox: God closed the ark...

Baptist: Closed it. Was he saved?

Orthodox: In the process of being rescued...

Baptist: Or was he not saved yet?.. I mean, was you saved from the flood?

Orthodox: From the flood, yes.

Orthodox: But he did everything the Lord said.

Baptist: The point is, how was he saved? He entered the ark. What is the ark? These are God's conditions for salvation. Now, what does a Christian do? He accepts God's conditions by entering into Christ as his ark of salvation. And so he is saved on that basis. Although he is still here on earth, he lives in Christ. And although we see that this person can live for 20-30 years, he is already saved.

Now, works of faith. That's the right thing to say about deification. It is written, " You have become partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1: 4).2Пет.1:4).

Do we understand this text enough: "Divine nature", "partakers"? What is involvement? When we partake of bread and wine, tell me, do we not unite with this bread and wine?

Orthodox: We are, yes. We connect with God.

Baptist: Well, so are we. But "partakers of the Divine nature", does this mean that we are united with His nature?

Orthodox: Only not with nature, but with Its energy, grace, and glory of the Divine nature.

Baptist: I would just like to explain this with one example. Just imagine, I would go to this mug, scoop up water from the ocean, and say: "Here is the ocean." I would have told you correctly: "Is this the ocean?"

Orthodox: Part of the ocean, not the whole ocean. By nature, the water there is an ocean, but not by volume.

Baptist: The ocean, it's vast. What if I said, "The water here is the same composition as in the ocean"? Right here, right? Now, we can't contain all of God. But it says: "I will dwell in them and walk in them" (2 Corinthians 6:16). God said so: "I'll movein." Therefore, "partaker of the divine nature" means that it is not just God who gives us power. Can you give me your power? You can't. And a person, aren't you a person? And God doesn't give us His power. He Himself lives in us by His power. Therefore, it is not just a force that saves us. It saves. It affects our conscience...

Orthodox: We don't argue with that.

Please, can I say two words in a new way, so as not to go to the side, otherwise we will get lost. You gave a very good example, I was absolutely delighted! Just believe it, I have a feeling that you are such Orthodox Baptists! Let me explain why. Look at this. Here is Noah building his ark for a hundred years. Here the animals come to him. Here he comes in with his family. Here is God closing the doors. Here comes the flood. He's been swimming for 180 days. Then it floats again. Eventually, the flood ends, it comes out. So we're going to say that he went into the ark, as you say, and was saved, but not yet, because there's still a flood ahead, right? The Great Flood. As if the rescue is not finished, the process is still underway...

Baptist: The process is underway, but he is already in the rescue.

Orthodox: Great! That's exactly what it's about. But if Noah had opened the door, or stopped feeding the animals inside, or started a knife fight – if all this mess had happened, of course, it wouldn't have worked out, and in the end, he would have died. And the others with him would have died, too. Thus, we also understand, in much the same way, that the Lord took us to Himself, introduced us to the Church, and now we have set out on the path of salvation. As long as we obey God, we are on this path, we are in the ark.

Baptist: Is this way of salvation salvation?

Orthodox: They showed you that the Church, there's a cross with a crescent moon on top, you called it that, right? In fact, it is not a crescent moon, but an anchor. The Church is the ark of salvation, the ship of salvation. And here we are in this ship of salvation, until we jump out of it ourselves.

Baptist: But you are already in the rescue?

Orthodox: I am saved, I am saved in hope.

Baptist: If you continue with this ark analogy, if Noah didn't do something or open a window, you see, it's just suicide.

Orthodox: Sure. So is the sinner...

Baptist: That is, a saved person, he understands that he has no other way out. He's in the ark, and if he leaves, he'll just die. So he stays in the ark.

You can finish about the power of sin. You say that a person who has sinned is under the power of sin. I want to challenge this point.

Orthodox: Let's.

Baptist: That's how open it is to me. A person who sins arbitrarily is under the power of sin. A person who has sinned is not under the power of sin. Arbitrarily, that is, by loving sin, a person gives himself up to sin, and sin takes power over him.

A person can sin by living in dependence on Christ, he can sin, and the Holy Spirit, acting on the consciousness of a Christian in conscience, shows that you have gone away from My command, from My path. And a Christian born of God, a partaker of the Divine nature, loves God and will strive for God. Again, because of this, the sinner is not under the power of sin.

Orthodox: Why does he sin? If I sin against my will, I am a slave to sin. Be that as it may. Look, I don't want to sin, I love God, but I still sin. What does this mean?

Baptist: What is sinning?

Orthodox: Violation of God's will. What else?

Baptist: There are stammering sins, or " let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of the flesh and spirit "(2 Corinthians 7: 1). There is filth. A stumbling sin, an abomination, but it is not the power of sin.

Baptist: My father gave me an example like this. The child washes the dishes and took the plate, broke it. Tell me, will his father take him and give him a good beating?"

Orthodox: It happens in different ways.

Baptist: And if the father loves the son?

Orthodox: It depends on what plate counts.

Baptist: You know, he'll just show you how to wash dishes more properly. Do you understand? Do you know who doesn't sin? Who doesn't work, who doesn't do anything. He lies, he does not sin.

Those who live and work for the Lord may sin. He might do something rash. But he has a desire to please Whom in everything?.. To God

Orthodox: So Noah, entering the ark, saved or being saved?

Baptist: He's saved already. He had already entered the ark.

Orthodox: How is one saved if the flood has not yet begun?

Baptist: You were talking about a ship, and I was thinking about a boat. A person who drowns, he can not save himself. Another swims up, pulls him out by the hair (he may have already lost consciousness), revives him, pulls him into the boat, gives him something to eat, but it's still a long way to shore. He puts him at the oars and says, " Row." But he doesn't jump into the water himself, that is, he stays here, in the same boat – the one who saved him. And the man says, " I do not know how to row." He answers: "I'll teach you. Here, take it like this, back and forth, raise the oars, lower them." And a person starts, there is barely any strength there, then the strength is added. The one who saved him helps him. So eventually, he learned to row, but that savior doesn't get out of the boat.

And now he's paddling to the shore, and it's a long way to the shore. And when he gets ashore, he'll say: "I am finally saved." That is, this is the original salvation – Christ pulls us dead out of the water. He made it His victim. And He puts us in the boat. Let it be called, as you say, the Body of Christ or the Church. Or this is his personal salvation. And He stays with us, we are together in this boat: He is the Captain, and I am His employee. But I must row. All these things that we do are a consequence of salvation.

Orthodox: Are they voluntary? Is this an act of gratitude or not?

Baptist: This is both gratitude and spiritual growth.

Orthodox: You both say the same thing, the accents are different. In fact, you deny that salvation has been accomplished. Because if I'm rowing now, I'm in the process. If I have entered the ark now, then I am in the process.

Baptist: I'm saved from sin, I'm not drowning in sin, I'm in a boat. I am rowing, and when I reach the shore, I will be settled in the Kingdom of Heaven, and I will be completely saved.

Baptist: And if I die? I can die a hundred times, a hundred times. If not Christ. The Christ Who holds me.

Orthodox: Please answer my question. See, you said that "faith without works is dead "(James 2: 26). Do I understand correctly that faith that saves a person cannot be considered separately from works? That is, deeds are necessary in the cause of salvation.

You say that works are necessary in the cause of salvation-yes or no?

Baptist: It says so: "faith without works is dead."

Orthodox: Everything! That is, works in the matter of salvation are necessary.

Baptist: But what are the cases? Works of faith.

Baptist: Here I am a man with many children. Our president issues a law that provides benefits for children. Let's say I believe that the president has passed such a law, and I'm sitting at home waiting for benefits. Tell me, will I get an allowance?

Orthodox: No, it won't.

Baptist: Why? The law has been issued.

Orthodox: I need to write a petition.

Baptist: Now, these are works of faith. If I believe, and I as a large child belong to this category, what do I do? I go and fulfill all the conditions that are given for receiving these benefits.

Orthodox: Did I understand correctly, and you all agree with him, that salvation also requires works of faith?

Baptist: Are deeds the cause of salvation or the effect? Is the work that a person does the cause of salvation or the effect of salvation?

Orthodox: This is not a consequence of salvation, it is an integral part.

Orthodox: Or rather, it's a sign that I'm saving myself. Deeds are a sign of faith. Both the condition and the attribute.

Baptist: If works are not the cause of salvation, then who or what is the cause of our salvation? "These are the works of Christ. This is the sacrifice of Christ, this is the blood, this is the death, this is the resurrection, right? We are based entirely on the fact that we are saved by the works of Christ. One hundred percent. But when we have believed in Him, now our works are the result of salvation. Works of faith as obedience to the Lord, as gratitude to the Lord.

Orthodox: Thank you so much for your reply. You just said that works are just our obedience. Can you be saved without these things? As it is written in James," Can such faith save you? " (James 2: 14)

Baptist: Can not.

Orthodox: That's what I want to hear. Works of faith, they are still necessary in the work of salvation.

Baptist: Necessarily.

Orthodox: Baptists are saved on business, including?

Baptist: No, Baptists are saved by the sacrifice of Christ and live in obedience to Christ.

(Comment: The Baptist contradicts himself. In a previous remark, he agreed that for salvation (in addition to the sacrifice of Christ) it is also necessary to have cases, and now he has refuted himself, saying that cases are not mandatory at all).

Orthodox: But without works, they are not saved. Well, answer me, it's important for us not to drive you into a corner, but to discuss the key points.

Baptist: I would like to go back to Ephesians 2: 8: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not of you, but the gift of God." That is, this text says that my salvation is through faith, and "not from you." The text of James is as I understand it: it says that if the faith is real, it will be confirmed in works. If a person says that he has faith, but his works do not confirm it, then this is not true faith. After all, there are many people who say: "I believe." How can I verify that he really believes?

I test this by seeing in the life of this person the works of his faith, the fruits of this faith. That is, if there are fruits of faith, then it is true faith. And I wanted to tell you about the text of the Gospel of Mark 16: 16, we remembered it both last time and today. Written: "whoever believes and is baptized will be saved." And here you put almost the end. And then it says: "but whoever does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16: 16). That is, the condemnation comes for unbelief, not for non-baptism. The text says so.

Orthodox: Let me explain it to you. It's elementary here. If a person does not believe, then, consequently, he will not be baptized. It just doesn't make sense to write it. It is clear that if a person does not believe, that is, if I do not believe, I, of course, will not be baptized. Therefore, this does not mean that you do not need to be baptized.

Orthodox: I would also like to comment on the text that you mentioned in your report: "He who believes in me is not judged, but he who does not believe is already condemned" (John 3: 18). This text is very important, and unfortunately, you didn't finish reading it. What will the unbeliever be condemned for? Because he disbelieved. That is, here we must understand that "believers are not sued" – not not sued at all. You rightly said that we should show our faith. Otherwise, there is no faith, empty, dead faith.

A believer is not sued for lack of faith. Here's the thing. That is, it is not about saving the believer, if he is a believer, but rather that he will not be condemned for unbelief. But for the rest, God will weigh his deeds. So in this respect, I am very happy that you agree that works are necessary for salvation and show that salvation is being accomplished.

Baptist: Well, I can even agree with what you're saying and ask a question. Do you have such cases?

Orthodox: We discussed it last time. I hope for God's mercy.

Baptist: And I believe in the mercy shown in Christ's sacrifice. Now it has already taken place, and we must rest our whole heart there.

Orthodox: Here's the deal. I have already told you that there can be a difference between subjective faith and the opinion of the Lord God. I may delude myself into thinking that I am a righteous person, but God considers me a sinner. I can count myself saved, as some of your brethren do, and they were sinners for God. The same way? In this respect, my conceit that I am only being saved, and not saved, that I hope for the mercy of God, and have not already received this mercy, seems to me much more appropriate. Because a person who is in the process of being saved, he is always awake. Who is already saved, and why stay awake – he has already received everything.

Baptist: I am saved, because I am no longer in the swamp, but in a boat. I am saved because I am swimming to the shore, and I will be saved when I come ashore. That's what we usually believe.

Orthodox: Here it is! Very good.

Baptist: You see salvation as some kind of process.

Orthodox: Yes, yes.

Baptist: But if we read this text, see if it says: "Now, O Master, you send your servant away in peace, according to your word; for my eyes have seen your salvation, which you have prepared in the presence of all nations..." (Luke 2:29-31). This is said by Simeon.

Orthodox: Yes, I remember.

Baptist: When he took the Baby Jesus and said: "my eyes have seen (what?) Your salvation, which You have prepared." So, if salvation is a process, then someone will reach, someone will not reach, you can pour from empty to empty...

Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Savior? This is the question for every person here. We were born sinners, by whose choice? Who made the choice? Adam made a choice, right? And tell me, did we make this choice to be sinners? We became sinners by Adam's choice. Do we still have a choice?

Orthodox: We also sin arbitrarily.

Baptist: No, there was a choice left – to choose between God and a sinful life. Do you still have this choice?

Baptist: Stayed. Free will remains.

Baptist: We are sinners by Adam's choice. Now, " My eyes have seen your salvation." Today, every person living on earth has a choice: either choose Christ as their Savior, or stay out of this salvation.

Today's topic is about salvation. So salvation is Christ. And what is done in It, of course, is our salvation. And today we considered the issue of salvation as a process a little more. The process of salvation is if you give up Christ, you are lost. But if you do not give up Christ, if you hold Him in your heart, if you love Him, then you are saved now, and you will be saved there.

Orthodox: That's right. But the word " if " is key. And if so, and if not?

Baptist: "If", because there are exceptions.

Orthodox: Numerous.

Orthodox: You can confirm the process of why we are being saved. You agreed with the speaker's thesis that the path of salvation has not changed in any way – from apostolic times to the present day. And I want to read out and continue the message that is set forth in Ephesians 2. But the apostle does not end there. He writes further: "And He appointed some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as pastors and teachers (for what purpose?), for the perfecting of the saints (that is, those who have believed in Christ), for the work of ministry, for the building up of the Body of Christ (that is, it is the Church), until we all come to the unity of the faith and knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the full stature of Christ" (Ephesians 4: 11-13).

That is, we say, "Yes, we are children of God," but we are still born children. And to be in the full measure of Christ, we need the way of salvation by the grace of God.

But for this purpose, as we read here, intermediaries appear. There is no such thing here that we believe and come to the fullness ourselves. Here the apostle says: "He appointed some apostles and others as prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers for the perfecting of the saints." In other words, the Church has a certain ministry that helps us achieve perfection. This is how the Lord arranged it, it is not a human invention. This is how the Lord designed His Church, and it is humanly understandable. Because it is ontologically difficult for one person to be saved by direct communication with God; we are again talking about the grace of God, which performs this way of salvation in a person. Right?

It is not man himself who acts, but grace that acts in him. But in order to grow into the fullness of this grace, we need a way to fight the passions.

The way to combat the passions here, again, in the Church, is being created so that " by true love all may return to Him who is the head, Christ, of whom is the whole body, formed and joined together by every bond that binds them together... "(Ephesians 4: 15-16).

Here we see that the Church is carrying out the transformation of this grace of God, which He Церковьgave to the Church in order to lead us to the Son, that is, the Holy Spirit leads us to His Son.

He's An Intermediary. And this is done in the Church, as the apostle says here, in order that the whole Body, which is Christ, "may be increased according to the measure of each member, so that it may build itself up in love" (Ephesians 4:16). That's what we're talking about. I want to confirm the idea of salvation as a process. The process is described here. These are poems that describe the process.

If you deny this, then what is the apostle talking about? Can you comment?

Baptist: Good. Christ as Savior and salvation. And when a person connects with Christ, he has this process. There is a process of living, a process of growing in Christ.

Orthodox: Why did the Lord put...

Baptist: And now, I have made some of them apostles... We read the epistles of the Apostles Peter and Paul... Become evangelists – we read the Gospels... Teachers... Pastors... If we read the Word of God, we go into it to really grow. Not just to do some rituals.

Orthodox: In the history of the Church, how was it?

Baptist: Wait a minute. Here are the apostles, here are the evangelists. When we read the Word of God, the Holy Spirit, through the word that He left here through the apostles, through the evangelists, helps us to grow in Christ. "Unto the measure of the full stature of Christ, unto a perfect man." (Ephesians 4: 13). If we say that we are believers and do not read the Word of God, if we do not understand, if we do not see Christ, if we do not trust Him, then, as the brothers rightly said, faith without works is dead.

Orthodox: Tell me, what was it like in the first-class Church? In the historical Church, how did salvation take place, how do you describe it now? Or, after all, how is it happening in the Orthodox Church now, if you look at it historically?

Baptist: Historically, it is written that when the Apostle Paul entered the synagogue or wherever else, he read the texts of Scripture. Which ones? The Old Testament. From these texts, he showed Christ, and the Bereans even examined these Writings with the apostle Paul to see if this was what the apostle Paul said.

And we see that a lot of texts from the Old Testament are given in the New Testament. Since there was no New Testament in the First Apostolic Church, they readThe Old Testament. There are many texts in the Old Testament, each book pointing to Christ. All books are Christ-centered. So we read from the Old Testament. And today we have the fullness – the New Testament, it reveals reality. Moreover, the Apostle Peter spoke verbally about how he lived with Christ, about what Christ said when he was with the twelve apostles. That is, they still read the Scriptures, studied, and from the Scriptures...

Orthodox: Was that all they lived for?

Baptist: Why just this one? We are talking about Scripture now.

Orthodox:Did they have Communion or the Sacrament of Confession?

Baptist: They lived in Christ...

Orthodox: I'd like to ask you about the Scripture... You must understand that not everyone could have read it. A set of Holy Scripture books was almost nowhere to be found, a complete set. And the canon itself was formed in the IV century, a complete canon. Therefore, of course, it is not that they read and were saved, but that they accepted the teaching of the church.

Baptist: They were listening to the preacher.

Orthodox: That's right. We are talking about Apostolic times, not the Old Testament.

Baptist: No. The First Apostolic Church read only the Old Testament.

Orthodox: They were taught by the Spirit of God, had the right teaching, and did not readThe Old Testament. They also read the Old Testament, but they had the Spirit of God who spoke about the teaching.

Baptist: And we also talked about this.

Orthodox: Here, of course, we are not talking about what they read and were saved, but about being obedient to the Church and its teaching. Again, the teaching of the Church must be unchangeable, because the way of salvation is unchangeable. But if Baptist teaching appeared in the seventeenth century, it is not continuous from the apostles. Here's the thing. It wasn't the same in the 15th century and 12th century.

Baptist: Here is the form that is now in Orthodoxy, was it like this in the first century?

Orthodox: The content is identical, but the form was different.

Baptist: It is not a fact that the content of the faith has not changed...

Orthodox: Show me what it is?

Who, say, seven hundred years ago believed in salvation by faith? There were no such people! Or a thousand years ago.

Baptist: There were, but we don't know them.

Orthodox: Here! And there should be a church-wide teaching taught from the department. The church is a candle on a candlestick, it is a city at the top of a mountain. This is a teaching not taught in a corner, but taught in the Church, by church teachers. None of the church teachers publicly taught this as a teaching in the Church. Here's the thing. Do you understand? That is, it is a new teaching that emerges in the 16th century; you accept it in its form, refined in the 17th century, it is not continuous from the apostles.

Baptist: No, this is not a new teaching, on the contrary, people have returned to their roots, to the Holy Scriptures. As the apostles taught, so they began to teach in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.

Orthodox: It is not continuous. This was not taught seven hundred years ago or a thousand years ago.

Baptist: Paul taught about justification by faith and salvation.

Orthodox: None of the church teachers talked about it.

You were talking about Ephesians 2: 8. I was just quoting the last verse of Chapter 3, "To Him be glory in the Church in Christ Jesus to all generations, from everlasting to everlasting" (Ephesians 3: 21). That is, it turns out that in the Church the right glory is sent to God. That is why we are called Orthodox.

The right glory is sent back. And so on continuously, in all generations from century to century. So, even in the 5th century, even in the 15th century, it does not matter whether the glory is right in the Church of Christ. But who glorified God in salvation by faith in the fifth century? No one was like that.

Baptist: So we don't just know them.

Orthodox: We know for sure. This was not the case with church teachers.

Baptist: Already in the 5th century St. Augustine lived. He praised the Lord for his salvation by faith.

Orthodox: He has no doctrine of salvation by faith. This is Luther's teaching.

Baptist: As so no. Of course, I haven't read much of Augustine. Let me reread everything, look at all his books.

Orthodox: Let's.

Baptist:I think he was even the first Calvinist.

Baptist: The doctrine of salvation by faith was. It's just that Martin Luther rebelled. Martin Luther rebelled and spoke of salvation by faith, because already indulgences were being sold to everyone. They've already started selling it. So he rebelled against all these indulgences.

Orthodox: This isn't about Martin Luther. It's about continuous learning. That is, in the fifth, twelfth, and fourteenth centuries there must be continuous, correct, and infallible church teaching. I have already said that no one taught about salvation by faith a thousand years ago. This means that this teaching is not apostolic.

Baptist: You can't say that.

Orthodox: Easy, easy.

Orthodox: Give us some sources about teaching by faith.

Orthodox: Yes, it's elementary simple. Many texts from the eleventh century. Cite who at that time taught salvation by faith from the pulpit of the church, as a church teaching.

Baptist: No, the Apostle Paul taught, Christ taught...

Orthodox: Continuous learning... Then what happened?

Baptist: I didn't live there then, I do not know what happened there.

Orthodox: Why, if, in your opinion, it was an apostolic teaching, then it later ceased to be a general church teaching?

Orthodox: But there is a text in Scripture that says, "The Church... the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Timothy 3: 15), and "the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matthew 16:18). That is, the truth, it will always be preserved in the Church. And in the first, and in the second, and in the third and subsequent centuries...

Baptist: I'll tell you what happened... The priests, even if they were still called Catholics at that time, before the division, before 1054, all these Catholic and Orthodox priests took the word of God from the people. And they didn't teach, they didn't preach, as you are now beginning to preach, and we have always done so. And people were in the dark. And this was the great apostasy of the Church. But there were some people who were truly regenerated, and this small remnant was the Church. But this dominant historical Church was in great apostasy.

Orthodox: Just imagine... I'm sorry, of course... I have a collection of works (preserved)at my house St. John Chrysostom. Twelve volumes. That's the thickness. These are all oral sermons. He didn't write desk books. It was recorded after him. I mean, just imagine, it was during his life, not very long, I must say, he preached so much. And you tell me that the living word of God was not preached?

Baptist: Because the persecution is what it was. When did the inquisition begin?

Orthodox: What inquisition? There was no inquisition in the East. There was no inquisition in the Orthodox Church. This is a Western practice, and a later, medieval one at that.

Baptist: Well, I'm weak in history. I already told you last time, so I won't argue here.

Orthodox: So this is important... We are not arguing, we are now looking for the truth.

Baptist: Jesus Christ says many times: "Your faith has saved you."

Orthodox: Who did he tell? The ones he healed. It is not about eternal salvation, but about saving from disease.

Baptist: Look at the last text: "These things are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (John 20:31). Here is a clear description of what the Gospel is written for, so that you may believe and have life. You will probably agree that the life of Christ and salvation are inseparable parts.

Orthodox: Definitely.

Baptist: So we won't... If you want to keep your opinion, you can stay. But all Scripture (the Bible) is written so that we may believe and live in dependence on Christ.

Orthodox: I'm sorry, you're mixing up the private and the general in these images of yours. That is, when, for example, in the previous example they said: "Behold, I see salvation", when Simeon the God-receiver saw Christ, it means that the Savior has come. But this does not say about the private salvation of each person.

Baptist: You had several references to the text from Philippians: "I do not consider myself accomplished...", says Paul.

Orthodox: Yes.

Baptist: Are you sure he's talking about salvation here?

Orthodox: And what does he want to achieve? Please explain.

Baptist: Well, are you sure he's talking about salvation here?

Orthodox: He's talking about Christ. He has not yet reached the end of Christ. Therefore, here, of course, we are talking about full communion with Christ, Communion with God. This is salvation.

The Baptist: About salvation?

Orthodox: Do you think not? Prove from the text that I am wrong.

The Baptist: And I think that from the context of the Epistle to the Philippians, the main idea of this epistle is to...

Orthodox: Show me from the text.

The Baptist: Now, I'll tell you. The main idea of the message is not that they talk about joy, but that we have the same feelings as in Christ Jesus. And this is what we must strive for. And here it is about sanctification that it is said. Not that I have to achieve salvation, but to achieve perfection...

Orthodox: Please remind me of the verse...

The Baptist: We have to finish it already. Let's sum it up. Here are my impressions. Once, when I was vacationing in the south in the summer, we talked in a small church, I said a phrase that offended everyone a little. These were our Baptists, and the Adventist came alone. We talked with him, and I say: "You know that Baptists are the most naked." And he looked like that, and our Baptists say we've never heard that before.

I told you, we're the naked ones. We have only Christ, and there is nothing else. No sacred traditions, no fathers we look up to. We don't look up to John Smith, we don't think we came from him. We don't have other languages, we don't have the Sabbath, we don't have everything that other people brag about and rely on to be saved. Now, we have nothing, we have only Christ.

And if all of us wanted to focus only on Him, then we would unite tonight, and nothing would separate us. We would reject all other dividing, secondary points and say: "Christ is our Savior, let's love Him, listen to Him, follow Him, look at Him and serve Him." That's it! And so our heads and brains have been overgrown with all sorts of theological works there, you often say: "The Church speaks, the Church teaches, the Church believes so..."

Orthodox: Who is the Head of the Church? Christ!

The Baptist: You have put the Church above Christ.

Orthodox: No, Who Is The Head Of The Church? We do not separate in our Orthodox consciousness. The head of the Church is Christ.

The Baptist: The Word of God is higher than the Church.

Orthodox: Seriously? Higher than Christ Himself? What is the church? The Body of Christ.

The Baptist: Not Christ Himself. Christ is the Word incarnate. "The Word became flesh," and Christ left His teaching to us. We must build our faith on this model of teaching, on this foundation. That is why I would like to urge all of us (if possible, God willing, we will meet again) to talk about Him more often, look at Him as He spoke, as He taught. Not as some holy father taught, but as Christ taught, as it is written in the Gospel. Are you sure that this is Inspired Scripture, that it is one hundred percent original? The gospel, right? And so let's build our faith on this original, and then nothing will separate us.