"Personal relationship with Christ of an Orthodox Christian and a Baptist" — Dispute (interview) the Orthodox Christian with Baptists

The following persons participated in the dispute:

On the Orthodox side: Priest Evgeny Veselov (speaker), Priest Dimitri Trifonov, Alan Bedoev and others.

On the Baptist side: Pastor Sergey Antonovich Didovets (speaker), Pastor Alexander Finogenov and others.

* Minimal literary editing of the text was carried out for ease of reading. Comments on-Alan Bedoev and the priest Evgeny Veselov.

Baptist report (Pastor Sergey Antonovich Didovets)

Baptist (speaker): Our topic today is "Personal Relationship with Christ", that is, how Orthodox people communicate with Jesus and how Baptists do.

I want to read two short texts from the Gospel. The first is recorded in 1 John 1: 3: What we have seen and heard, we declare to you, so that you also may have fellowship with us, and our fellowship is with the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ. And the second text, 1 Corinthians 1: 9: Is correctGod, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

So Paul and John write about the fact of communion with Christ. John even calls on other believers to join in this communion. He says: Come into fellowship with us, and our fellowship is with the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ.

Communion with Christ leads us to communion with God. Without Jesus Christ, communion with the Holy God is impossible. Why? Because God A saint, but we are sinners, and holiness is incompatible with sin.

But when did you arrive Jesus Christ on earth, He just came to solve the problem of sin. He took our sin upon Himself and went to the cross. In the body of Jesus Christ, God's punishment was accomplished, because it is written: the wages of sin is death (Rom. 6: 23). God punished sin in one Person. In order not to punish all of humanity for the sins of people, God's Son Jesus Christ died. You can say that it was a blow of God's justice on the body of Jesus Christ, and Christ there, on Calvary, sacrificing Himself, burned under the blow of God's wrath, gave up the ghost and on the third day rose again.

Jesus, by His sacrifice, not only solved the problem of sin, but also broke down the barrier that stood in the middle. We read about this in Ephesians 2: 14-18. It says that we were enemies of God, and the Gentiles were at enmity with the Jews. This enmity between men and God was removed by the body of Jesus Christ.

It explicitly states that in one body Christ reconciled both Gentiles and Jews to God. Therefore, from the moment when Christ died on the cross, it was possible to have a close relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

A deep and serious relationship begins from the moment you meet. Just like we did with Alan. First, we met virtually. He watched our video and my interview and wrote: "Can we have a chat with you?"

I asked if Baptists are open to communion with Orthodox Christians. And I said that we are open to communication with all people and will be happy to communicate with you too. And so we had some correspondence, then we called. We already knew each other in absentia, but this acquaintance was not enough. In order to develop a closer relationship in the future, a face-to-face meeting was needed.

We agreed, and this meeting took place. We talked about ourselves, asked each other around, and after that we wanted to communicate more and introduce other people to this circle of communication. It should be the same for Jesus Christ. You can know a lot about it...

You can give another example from life. Now it is fashionable to get acquainted via the Internet in order to create a family in the future. It happens that on a dating site people get in touch, and a man or guy puts a photo that is not his own. Or the girl is very beautiful, and this guy immediately falls in love with her, in this photo.

And communication goes on and on, and then he says, well, let's meet again. And when the meeting happens, it turns out that there is a completely different girl sitting there, and not at all the same appearance. Does this happen? So it's better to see it once than hear it a hundred times.

The same is true of Christ. We can know Him in absentia for many years. Getting to know Him or learning about Him from the Bible, from the Gospel, going to worship services, listening to sermons, songs, and even praying to the Lord. But if there was no personal meeting with Him, then, probably, there is no personal relationship with Jesus Christ. This is still preparation for the most important thing that should be in life.

Where does this encounter with Christ take place? Of course, if we say that it takes place in the pages of the Bible, because from here we learn about Jesus Christ, this is also correct. But this is still a correspondence meeting. I understand that the real encounter with Christ takes place on Mount Calvary. In the place where 2000 years agoJesus Christ died for us.

If you say, why not, we can go to Israel and look at this mountain. Even if we arrive there, the Cross does not stand there and Christ does not hang on this Cross. Of course, I think you understand that this is a spiritual experience, this encounter with Christ. That is, to be so imbued with the truth about what Christ did, to focus your heart and mind so much on Christ crucified that He will reveal Himself to us with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Maybe, of course, you can tell us your experience, how you had an encounter with Christ. And from here, from this meeting, your relationship with Him already began. Maybe you had something different. You can tell me that the Apostle Paul did not meet Christ at Calvary. That is, for him, the Cross was not shown and Jesus Christ hanging on it, but simply the light from heaven shone around it, the voice sounded: "It is hard for you to go against the odds, for I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting" (Acts 9:5). But then we read when he asked: So he went toDamascus, and there he fasted and prayed for three days. I think that during these three days, he made sense of his entire life, and there he saw and understood this truth, which he had not previously recognized and struggled with, the truth that this crucified Messiah, whom Christians say is the Messiah of Israel, is my personal Savior.

I think that during these three days of fasting and prayer, he ascended to Golgotha, looked at Christ crucified, and, having established himself in this faith… Of course, later, when Ananias laid his hands on him, he received the Holy Spirit and, well, this new birth happened.

I personally had a meeting with Christ exactly as I say. I come from a religious family, my parents took me to the Baptist church from childhood, I knew a lot, I went to Sunday school and even went to youth meetings. At all the divine services, when I was about fifteen and a half years old, I already listened attentively to God's Word, understood everything that was said about God, about Christ, but I was not a regenerated person. Christ has not yet met me, and I have not yet met Him.

And it was Wednesday night, a prayer meeting, and I had a question about the Bible, and I went up to a preacher who was an authority to me, and after the service we go home and I ask him this question. The question wasn't about salvation, or even about Christ Himself; I was interested in the question of other languages at that moment, but by the time we reached the fork in the road where we were supposed to say goodbye and go home, he answered my question and started talking about Christ crucified.

So we stopped, and I was silent for two hours and just listened. I thought that God Himself was speaking through this preacher, as Paul writes to the Galatians: "you who have had Jesus Christ predestined before your eyes are as if you had him crucified" (Galatians 3: 1). When Paul preached, these Galatians looked into spiritual reality and saw the Cross that stands between heaven and earth, the crucified Christ, and this is how they met Christ. It was the same for me.

It was as if I had been on Calvary and looked at the wounds of Christ, at the holy blood shed, and understood that Christ was dying for me personally. He's my Savior. When I realized all this, I immediately fell in love. Love Christ's love began to fill my heart. And I have the answer to love. Lord, I want to serve you!

We said goodbye to this preacher, and I came home. At eleven-thirty in the morning, I go to my room, get down on my knees and say: "Jesus Christ, You died for me personally, You are my Savior. I dedicate myself to Your service." At that moment, when I was praying, there were no feelings at all. No joy, no sorrow, no awareness of sinfulness, no exultation, nothing. Just a deep realization that Christ died for me personally, and He bought me to be His slave. So I dedicate myself to the service of Christ.

It's been almost 16 years for me. I made this initiation, and since then I have had a personal relationship with Christ. I go through life with Christ, He lives in my heart and guides me, and so on.

So then, see, meeting, acquaintance. And this acquaintance, if people fall in love with each other, if it's a guy and a girl, it develops into love. This love must then be registered through a marriage that takes place in the registry office, and then knowledge is made.

It is written, " I have knownAdam and Eve" (Gen. 4: 1). Cognition is a connection. And there are many stories in the New Testament, and even in the Old Testament it is said. For example, Hosea says: "Let us therefore know, and strive to know Him" (Hosea 6: 3). Cognition is always a connection.

If in the Old Testament it was difficult for people to connect with God, because sin separated them, but through the sacrifices they made, they still received mercy from the Lord and communicated with God. It is now, in the New Testament, when Christ's body has broken the veil that separates the holy God from sinful humanity, and now we have free access to the Father, as the Epistle to the Hebrews in chapter 6 says that we can draw closer to God more and more. And we must know Christ. This is the moment of meeting with Christ, if it is on Calvary, and with repentance, with the confession of our sins, with the invitation of Christ to our hearts, then this is the moment of being born again.

Being born again is the entry of Christ into my heart. Christ says: "Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and sup with him, and he with me" (Revelation 3:20). If I opened my heart, invited Him seriously, He entered by the Holy Spirit into my heart and was united with my spirit. This is the knowledge of Christ. This is also called being born again in another way. I have had such a day in my life, I have already told you about it, and now I live with Christ every day.

Now, briefly, I would also like to share how we can have this living communion with Christ every day.

Well, I do not know how other believers understand all this, perceive it, and can tell it, but I have this living communion with Christ through two things.

And a third one is present. There are two things, and there is a third, which is the third person of the Holy Trinity. So, in order to communicate with Christ every day, we need to read the Bible, because through the Bible God speaks to us.

Especially if we read the New Testament, it is Christ's teaching. If in the Old Testament God the Father spoke more to the Israelites, and speaks to us, then in the New Testament it is Christ who speaks to us.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh "(John 1: 1, 14). And the apostles then wrote down this word. As we read this word, we believe – I believe with all my heart – that Jesus Christ speaks to me through the Word of God.

But if only one side has some kind of conversation, then it turns out to be a monologue, not a dialogue. And communication means dialogue.

How do I speak to Jesus Christ? This is a prayer. I haven't told you anything new just now. We need to read the Bible so that Christ can speak to us, and we need to pray so that we can speak to Christ. But do all Bible readers and worshippers have a living communion with Christ?

And the answer is obvious-no. Most Bible readers and worshippers do not know Christ and do not communicate with Him in a way that is a living communion. Why? Because there is no presence of the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, all the words written in the Bible are dead.

Christ said when He was in communion with His disciples:: "The words that I speak to you are spirit and life" (John 6:63). I believe that these words of Christ recorded in the Gospel are spirit and life. But they can quicken my spirit, enliven me, and enliven me every day. But if they are without the Holy Spirit, these words will be of no use to me. So I must rely on the Holy Spirit when I read the Scriptures.

And when I pray without the Holy Spirit, it's a dead prayer. The Holy Spirit should inspire me to pray. If the Holy Spirit lives in my heart, if He is present when I read the Gospel, and I pray: "Lord, quicken Your words for me" - then the Holy Spirit quickens the word that I read, and I understand it. And I not only understand, but also accept with my heart. That's why I often have this kind of live communication.

When I am in a hurry, when I do not rely on the Holy Spirit, when I have sinned and want to read and pray, I have a dead communion with Christ. That is, I think that I am communicating with Christ, but I feel that I am not. Because the Holy Spirit does not work, does not quicken these words, and through these words I am not quickened. And my prayer is dry, sluggish, I can fall asleep during prayer.

Why? Because either I'm in a hurry, or I'm thinking about something else, or I've sinned. Therefore, it is very important to rely on the Holy Spirit while reading the Bible in prayer. And when I communicate with Christ in this way, I abide in Him. I am in God's Word, I am in communion with God. And with the help of the Holy Spirit. What does it mean? This means that I am like a twig on a vine.

Christ said: "I am the vine, and you are the branches. Abide in Me" (John 15: 5,4). And this is a call for us to abide in It every day. This means that I am on the vine, I am feeding on the sap of the vine.

I eat Christ like manna from heaven. Christ said: "I am the bread that came down from heaven, and he who eats me will live by me" (John 6: 51). Do we eat Christ when? Not only when we break bread, but also every day when we communicate with Him, reading the Scriptures and praying. When I communicate with Christ like this, He leads me like a good Shepherd, and I am His lamb. And it would be possible to give many different images, but I think I'll stop there for now. And that's enough for now. During the conversation, we will be able to continue this topic further. I think I'm on time, right? thank God.

Orthodox: Thank you.

Baptist: Good. Amen to that! Let's probably not ask any questions then, but just listen to the second report right away, right?

Report of the Orthodox (Priest Evgeny Veselov)

Orthodox (speaker): Well, I'll have a little more extensive report. I'll try, but I'm afraid it won't be very brief. Please be patient.

I would like to build a report not in the same way as Sergey: "I and Christ". And a little linking with our past meetings. Because it seems to me that the creed manifests itself in the life of a believer, and the life of a believer somehow helps to understand the creed more deeply, and often even make a choice of the creed. When a person feels that this is not my faith. Then he finds another one: "Oh, that's mine." And this was due to the mystery of his heart and his previous life.

Therefore, it is more expedient to link this topic with our previous meetings, and we will hear their echoes now. Therefore, before the report itself, I would like to make a few preliminary comments.

I agree with you, Sergey, that the practice of church leadership is carried out under the influence of the Spirit of God and leads the faithful to salvation. That is, not only personal salvation is accomplished under the influence of the Spirit of God, but also the entire church leadership.

Let's take a broader look. Indeed, if we look at the Apostolic Church, there was no complete equality either in gifts or in ecclesiastical status. Not all were prophets and teachers, and not all spoke in tongues. Indeed, Tabitha died, and the Christians of Joppa did not consider that they had the gift of deep prayer and the gift of miracle-working, but called Peter, who raised her up. When Eutychus died, they call the Apostle Paul. He prayed and raised her up. It would seem that everyone is equal. No. We see that there is a certain inequality, and this is according to the will of God. And the Apostle Peter (1 Peter 5:1-4) calls the younger ones to submit to the pastors, or rather, according to the text, to the elders, in Greek. And they even call themselves a co-presbyter. That is, we see a kind of superintendent's ministry that has the goal of saving the faithful or, as the apostle Paul puts it, "perfecting the saints for the foundation of the body of Christ and the knowledge of the Son of God" (Ephesians 4:11-16). This text deals not only with teaching, but also with church leadership in general. It is done according to the will of God and with the help of the Spirit of God.

And God promised such pastors not only under the apostles, but throughout the entire Old Testament era. The prophet Jeremiah promises this in Jeremiah 23: 4-5. He says so: "And I will set shepherds over them to feed them, and they will no longer be afraid or afraid, nor will they be lost," says the Lord. Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, and I will raise up a righteous branch for David, and a king will reign."… So we see that the Shepherd who will be shepherded is connected with the King, the Branch. That is, it is for the entire New Testament period. Thus, according to the New Testament, such pastors, their established ecclesiastical and correct customs serve the purpose of saving the faithful.

The second premise. It has been rightly said that one cannot understand one's personal relationship with Christ in isolation from the Holy Spirit. But I would say more broadly. We see the whole undivided action of the Holy Trinity. Both in relation to the salvation of humanity and the individual. Therefore, it seems to me that even with regard to the topic itself, it would be possible to say more broadly. The relationship is not with Christ, but with God. Well, for example, the Lord's Prayer, which Christ commanded us to read, is addressed to the Father. A Christian is called to become the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit, according to the apostle. Therefore, of course, we speak somewhat conditionally about Christ personally, understanding that the action of Christ is not separate from the action of the Father and the Spirit aimed at the salvation of mankind.

Another prerequisite for proper communion with Christ and proper relationships is proper faith in Christ. It should also be complete and error-free. The Apostle says: "For if a man should come and preach another Jesus, whom we did not preach, or if we should receive another Spirit, which we did not receive, or another gospel, which we did not receive, you would be very lenient with him" (2 Corinthians 11:4). It turns out that there is a different Jesus, and a different Spirit, and a different gospel. And you can accept it, even though it is very unpleasant for God. This is why the apostle warns us in his epistle to the Galatians (Galatians 1: 6-9) against another gospel, which for him is not the gospel at all. I won't read out the texts, we all remember.

In this regard, you will say, well, actually, what is the question? If we know dogmatics well, then this is a condition for what Sergey was talking about, that is, for knowing Christ. Well, I'm going to recount a conversation I had with a Baptist without mentioning his name. When we talked about Christ, I suggested that we reflect on the fact that Christ is perfectGodis the perfect man. Well, you can't argue with that.

So there are two natures in It. And two images, according to the Scriptures. The image of God and the image of a slave. Therefore, there are two persons in Christ. Divine and human. So my interlocutor said: yes. I don't know which of you agree or disagree with this opinion, but they generally agreed. In response, I told him that this was the Nestorianist heresy, which had been condemned by the Third Ecumenical Council. That's exactly the wording. Because in my reflections I have divided the One Christ into two Sons, which, of course, deprives us of salvation.

What does this mean? Not that a person is a heretic. This means that you can pray to Christ, you can assume that your communication with Him, and it is bad to understand with whom you are in communication. Or even misrepresent it. Therefore, correct faith in Christ, taught by the Church, is a prerequisite for correct personal relationships.

Another brief thesis. A personal relationship with Christ is possible only through his Body, that is, the Church. What is the reason for this? The Lord has ascended in the body, absolutely. But on earth, did he leave His mysterious Body, the Church, to us? Or didn't you leave it? And therefore, when we are baptized, we are baptized into Christ. When we receive communion, we receive communion in Christ. When we pray to the Father, say in heaven, we pray through Christ. So, the church life, where Christ is constantly preached, as I will try to show, it promotes the deepest possible personal communion with the Son of God.

And finally, the fifth premise. Not every person who is called Orthodox fully knows and correctly fulfills church customs. I don't know how obvious this is for you, but for us sitting here, it is clear, of course. I would say that we can roughly distinguish four categories of formally Orthodox people in their relationship with God. Which ones? Perfect, average, novice and completely alien to God.

At the last meeting, you noticed the fourth ones and reproached, I must say, partly the third ones, that is, those who are alien to God and partly newcomers. You do not know the first saints at all, although the saints were friends of God, devoted their whole lives to God, constantly continued in prayer and active fulfillment of the commandments of Christ, and became "a cloud of witnesses of Christ", according to the apostle (Hebrews 12:1). But saints, they are high for us, so I will talk about the second, that is, the middle ones. This is the average rate in the church for ordinary people.

It is for such – and I hope it is for each of us-that the model of a correct relationship with Christ is offered, which will now be discussed. Committing gross sins, such as fornication, for example, automatically puts a person outside the church, even if he himself thought that this was an unimportant matter.

This is the teaching of the church, not of individual ignorant persons. Now about relationships. If you think about two people, what kind of relationship there can be between them, it seems to me that you can offer two models. Well, even three, but we'll stop at two. This is the relationship of spouses and friends. Well, there are still children-parents. But I'm still talking about these two. So, the relationship of spouses is deeper, of course. And the Epistle to the Ephesians itself says that they have similarities with the relationship of Christ and the Church, and at the same time a certain mystery. The Church is both the bride and the wife of the Lamb.

Therefore, as members of the true Church, participating in her Sacraments, the mystery is, we partake of this mystery, we partake of personal knowledge and the mysteries of God's providence and the power of God. Conversely, without participating in the mysteries and Sacraments, the believer can only build hypotheses about this mystery, without personally touching it.

In the Scriptures, the mystery of this deeply personal relationship between the Soul and God is described in the Song of Songs, as you of course know. This isn't just some kind of love story, there are much more mysterious things behind it. And in fact, a person who seeks God, devotes himself to Him, tries to give all of himself to God. Such people have been in the church from the apostles to this day, just as they commanded.

In the church there are orders of virgins and virgins, in our modern language – monks who devote their entire lives to the fullest possible service to God. But you understand that among Protestants, such a virginal life, with full dedication to God and isolation from everything superfluous, is not even considered a significant virtue. Maybe I'm wrong, you think otherwise. But those with whom I spoke, I see that the family, children, and there that, as the apostle suggests, I have not even heard such a thing.

The relationship of friends, the second form, involves the performance of joint activities. If we transfer this to Christ, as we, as people, do, then we will have to say about prayer, what was said, and the fulfillment of the commandments. The commandments are written in the Scriptures. I have a little something in common with your report. I will immediately mention the commandments, so that later I can talk about prayer as a more important thing, in my opinion. Maybe not more important, but I'll tell you more about it.

As the commandments are fulfilled, true faith is revealed in us, or its absence is shown. In addition, the fulfillment of the commandments is impossible without the help of God. And the more I try, the more the Lord helps me, the more complete the presence and dominion of God becomes in believers, but the fullness of salvation and Revelation will be in the Kingdom of God.

As for prayer, it differs from cognitive actions. Arguments, discussions, and readings. Why? If I read and reflect, this is my action, it is not mutual. The quality of prayer is determined by Christ, according to this criterion-He says: "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God" (Matthew 5:8).

The purity of prayer, the undifferentiated standing before God, is determined precisely in prayer. This requires external and internal conditions. The right action of man and the cooperation of God. If I cling with my soul to the things of the earth, if I care more about them than about pleasing God, then of course this interferes with prayer, which was also said.

If I am content with a minimum of words and things in my life, forcing my mind to think more often about God and His benefits, praising God, setting aside special time for this, free from ordinary affairs, making every action an occasion to turn to God for help and guidance, then, of course, this improves the quality of my prayer.

And so it is rightly said that sin prevents good prayer. Indeed, if I consider myself a righteous person, if I condemn someone, I don't talk about gross sins-I stole, killed, deceived, I talk about the movements of the soul, then I can think that I am a righteous person, but I am like a Pharisee who scrupulously studied the Scriptures, carefully tried to fulfill them, believed in God. God, but was tempted by the actions of Christ, did not consider him his Teacher or Savior. And the Lord demands that our righteousness surpass that of the Pharisees (Matthew 5: 20). Hence, if a person says that he is righteous because he does not drink, does not smoke, does not commit fornication, loves Christ, acts according to His commandments, then it is not clear that his actions are higher than those of the Pharisees. The Lord requires us to surpass the righteousness of the Pharisees. By what? Hence, even to this day, the Lord tolerates obvious sinners in the Church, and once in ancient times He ate and drank with them. By the way, he also drank wine, and performed the first miracle in Cana of Galilee, and vice versa, the story of Simon the Pharisee in the parable of the two debtors proves that God will judge us for judging sinners.

So now that I have said these conditions about prayer and other things, I would like to briefly say something that you probably don't know, but I think it will be interesting for you. And describe, if possible, the usual lifestyle of a church-bound Orthodox Christian during the day and year. This thing is so practical, self-evident and uninteresting to us, but it will probably not be something new to you, but a look from the outside.

Thus, the day of a Christian, according to the teaching of the holy fathers, according to our liturgical books and prayer books, should be filled with prayer, long or short, from getting up to going to bed.

There must be God-mindedness, a duty in every work to act according to the commandments of God and the church's statutes. Among others, for example, at some times to keep a fast, as we are doing now. There should be a daily reading of the Gospel, the Apostolic epistles, and the Psalter. Especially it is necessary to allocate time for attentive and reverent performance of morning and evening prayers.

But if you are too busy – small children or something else, on the road, for example-you need to do what you can. Why do we need posts, for example? Fasting is useful for strengthening prayer, but also for reducing dependence on the body and its lusts.

And the apostle insists that even marital communion is suspended at this time for the exercise of fasting and prayer (1 Corinthians 7: 5). We pray, as you know, not only, not even often, not always, in our own words, but often in texts that other people have come up with.

So before the start of our meeting, we also sing a prayer that was not invented by us. What is the reason for this? Because the holy authors of these prayers had an experienced knowledge of God and were able to express the correct prayer arrangement in words. We do the same, and I think you do the same, when we sing psalms and spiritual songs according to the apostle's commandment. These are other people's words. And yet they reflect the movement of our soul. If they don't reflect, we should strive to be reflected. Here, take yourself and put it in the words of prayer.

As for public worship: there is my personal prayer, at home, for example, and there is a church prayer, there is a Sunday service, there are holidays, for example, Christmas, Easter, or Epiphany, the Descent of the Holy Spirit on the apostles, and so on. Large, small, medium-sized holidays, a large number. All of them, any church service, are addressed to the glorification of God and His economy. Texts are constantly read and sung during the divine serviceThe Holy Scriptures. The liturgical hymns recall the sacred events and actions of God in His friends, that is, in our saints.

At the same time, we do not detract from the glory of God, we do His will, because the Lord promises to "glorify those who glorify Him." This is from the first book of the Kingdom. If you are interested, I will tell you more, I will not take up time yet. I will also say something about icons, because you have already reproached us more than once that icon worship can be compared with idolatry, or even it is not a biblical teaching that prevents us from meeting Christ personally, and so on.

However, icons adorn every church and every home of an Orthodox Christian. For what? For the memory of God, for the awakening of love for Him and His friends, for gratitude to Him, more often recalling events from the earthly life of Jesus Christ. The icon has a dogmatic meaning. It seems to affirm the dogma of the Incarnation of God. The uncompensated God became a limited man like us, without losing His deity. Icons of saints dogmatically emphasize the conquering powers of God's grace, which works in the faithful Christian and destroys the machinations of the devil and sin that stumbles us. So, with your permission, I would very much like to show you the icons and explain their theological content.

Because if you see the icon, you will see the picture, but what is behind it, you will not be clear. With your permission, I will try to do this very briefly. Here is an icon of Jesus Christ. I will show you (referring to Baptists), they (i.e. Orthodox) know… Here is an icon of Jesus Christ. What do we see here? We see a halo over his head. The halo is a symbol of holiness and at the same time the halo means that a person is filled with the grace of God. This is what the Lord has called us to do.

We see a cross inscribed in the halo. Here are just three stripes, and usually draw nine small stripes. Means what? First, that this cross reminds us of the cross of Christ, of what He did for us, of what He saved us on the cross. Secondly, that He is the Lord of the nine orders of Angels and with their help rules the world. We see the signature "Jesus Christ", those who know understand that the Savior-Jesus is the Anointed One of God and anoints us. This is His boon. We see that His clothes, so old, but understandable to every person, they also have such a stripe, which is called "clave", or "clavius". This is a sign in the ancient world that a person had the right to teach. So He teaches us. We must be obedient to the image of the teaching that He teaches us. In His left hand He holds the Gospel. Here it is closed, but more often it is open, and some small text is written there. Reading this text, the believer is moved at heart and should rekindle in himself love for Christ and for His commandments. If, as here, the Gospel is closed, then this should remind us, but do you read the Gospel, and when you read, do you understand, and when you understand, do you fulfill? So, this should make us love the Word of God. With His right hand, He blesses us. We must accept this blessing and carry it through our entire lives. We must have a heart of gratitude to Christ for accepting and blessing us as we are.

At the same time, the same icon in a more detailed iconography, when the Lord sits on the throne, shows us a certain mysterious thing. It shows us about the same thing, only here the Gospel of Christ at the time of the Last Judgment is revealed. We will all stand before Him, and each of us will hear, according to the text of the Gospel: we have fulfilled His commandments, or we have not fulfilled them, as it is said in the parable of the Last Judgment. And some will go to the right, and some will go to the left. And in the same icon unfolded, we see here these drawings, which are not very noticeable to you. These are the orders of angels, which are poorly visible against the background of Christ, but, however, they fulfill any will of Christ. Everyone has a guardian angel, and the Lord accepts people's prayers through angels. They bring our prayers to the throne of God.

Even if we say about the icon of the Mother of God, the Virgin Mary, it would seem, but what is it here? No. She is holding the Christ child in Her arms, but He was incarnated for us. He did not disdain to become a small child, defenseless, out of love for us. We see that the Virgin Mary is holding Him close. Why is it pressing? Because it is the image of the Church, which is in indissoluble unity with Christ, which leads to Christ, which takes care that each of its members becomes a member of the Body of Christ. I won't go on, I wanted to be a little more detailed.

There are also holiday icons. The Feast of Christ's Baptism, the Entry of the Lord into Jerusalem, the Descent of the Holy Spirit, and others. Such icons are no longer used for prayer, but rather remind us of the benefits of God indicated in the Holy Scriptures, which we know about from church history, so that the love of God will be kindled more and more in our hearts.

It is good to always remember this, but if there is a visible example before our eyes, then, of course, the inner, coinciding with the outer, is even more confirmed in our hearts. For this purpose, the Church has established, among other things, the dogma of icon veneration.

Christian reading circle, as I said, in addition to daily prayers, this is a must-readThe Holy Scriptures, the Gospels, and the Apostolic epistles. In addition, we read patristic interpretations because we are not allowed to interpret as we wish.

Now, I feel this way, because I can only feel right, unmistakably, if I am reliably informed by the Holy Spirit. But this certainty, it is accompanied by visible signs, as was the case with the apostles. Otherwise, it may happen that I think I have the Holy Spirit, and the other thinks he has the Holy Spirit. And we disagree with each other... Who's right?

This cannot be the case in the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the holy Fathers do not disagree among themselves. They were imbued with the Holy Spirit, so we accept both their interpretation of Scripture and their teaching about faith and spiritual life.

It is necessary to actively fulfill the commandments that are appropriate for this Christian. Well, let's say that not everyone is called to preach. Not all charity is useful to the recipient. After all, we're not going to give money for drinks. Not everyone has children who need to be raised in a Christian way. But if there are, then taking care of them is more important than active external activity.

Crucial, however, in our personal relationship with Christ are the Sacraments. In Baptism, an Orthodox Christian was clothed with Christ. I noticed that when you spoke about the meeting of the Apostle Paul with Christ, you didn't even mention his Baptism. Meeting on the way, it was like a prerequisite. But those three days of experience, they were decisive. Although we don't see it in Scripture. The Scripture says that this is crucial, and then he speaks about it in court. There was a personal meeting with Christ. And then Baptism and related events, they make him sighted both spiritually and physically.

It is very important. For us, Baptism is the endowment of Christ. In Baptism, we became partners in His death. We were spiritually reborn. Not at repentance, but at Baptism. His life has entered us. In Chrismation (the next Sacrament), we are given the gifts of the Holy Spirit. You mentioned it. But the apostolic laying on of hands, under the apostles, was replaced by Chrismation. The laying on of hands taught Paul the Holy Spirit. Not the previous repentance, which is also good, but the laying on of hands.

In the Eucharist, we are personally united with Christ, because He himself enters us bodily and brings the Divine Life into us. He strengthens us, working from within, in prayer, in the fulfillment of the commandments, giving us an experienced knowledge of God himself. In Confession, finally, the priest has the authority and power given to him by Christ, forgives the penitents ' sins and gives them the power to fight and overcome sin.

All these gracious and mysterious means work in every Orthodox Christian to a different extent, namely, to the extent that we are obedient to God and the Church that He leads. Conversely, if we resist God, these same Sacraments will also condemn us before the Judgment of God, as happened with Judas, just as the apostle says (1 Corinthians 11:29-30): "For whoever eats and drinks unworthily eats and drinks condemnation to himself, not considering the Body of the Lord. Therefore many of you are weak and sick, and not a few are dying."

At the same time, how the Sacrament is performed, the external form, it is also important. The actions, actions, and words of the priest remind the faithful of the life of Jesus Christ, of his stewardship of our salvation, and of His great benefits to the human race. In addition, the Sacrament indicates the coming Judgment of God, so that we, according to the apostolic commandment, work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Conclusion: Created by the will of the Heavenly Father, guided by the Holy Spirit, with the Lord Jesus Christ as its head, the Apostolic Orthodox Church leads its children to the gates of Heavenly Jerusalem from its appearance on the day of Pentecost until its Second Coming. To do this, it teaches an infallible creed and reveals the correct image of God. Correctly explains the commandments of God in relation to the conditions of time. It offers a Christ-centered image of piety. Indicates the best examples of spiritual life in the person of saints. It teaches the correct way of prayer, warning against mistakes in prayer, in which, for vanity or other reasons, a Christian might mistakenly refer to "another Christ" who was not preached by the apostles. He reveals the unity of the living and dead saints through common prayer, because "with God all are alive," and He Himself, according to His promise, glorifies those who glorify him (1 Sam.2:30). And finally, it provides the Church with the necessary grace-filled means so that the Christian, as he lives in Christ, can overcome the devil and sin, and even in his earthly life become one of God's own and a citizen of the Heavenly Fatherland.

Thank you for your attention.

Discussion of reports

Baptist: Thank you. It's more profound than it's clear... about half of it I didn't understand...

Orthodox: I tried very hard, I'm sorry...

Baptist: How will we ask questions? I would like everyone to participate.

Orthodox (from the audience): Everything was clear to us...absolutely Orthodox teaching, which is clear to us...

Baptist: Because you've been in it for a long time, and I've heard half of the stuff for the first time.

Orthodox: Let me add something else to what Igor said. The thing is, what I said is the conditions for each of us, right?

Orthodox (from the audience): If we don't live by it, if we don't feel it in ourselves, then something breaks down in our spiritual life. So I didn't read the report to anyone in advance. However, they took it as something completely native.

Baptist: I agree.

Orthodox: So it turns out that our spiritual life is inseparable from the Church. Just like the icon of Christ and the Mother of God, they are soldered together, so they are drawn, and so we have them.

Baptist: Questions let's...

Orthodox: Well, you are the owners...

Orthodox (from the audience): I have two quick questions to ask if I got it right or not. What is included in your prayer, just your personal words? I mean not only personal prayer, but in general, for example, when instructing your believers. I understand that during the service you use psalms, as Father Eugene mentioned, but when, say, we are going to meet, you always pray in your own words, as you see fit... You mentioned that during such a prayer you can fall asleep, somehow distract yourself... Why is this happening?

Baptist: Well, it was rare. There was a time, more than six months ago, when I was still in Yakutia, I prayed every night from one to two in the morning. We divided the day with our brothers, and I got this time for prayer. And after a hard day, I stayed up until one o'clock in the morning, then I prayed, and I fell asleep twice. That is, I knelt down and spent an hour praying in my own words for myself, for the cause of God, for the Church, for the revival, for sinners, and so on. I just got tired and fell asleep.

Orthodox (from the audience): Yeah, I get it. So it was just related to fatigue?

Baptist: Yes.

Orthodox: (from the audience): That's exactly what I wanted to clarify, because for me this is only possible if you, for example, listen to someone's prayer, you can somehow fly away. I just didn't know how you could fall asleep when you were talking to God yourself… But I understand you. Good. And you also said that we eat Christ through the breaking of bread. Did I hear that correctly?

Baptist: Yes. We do not eat with our body, but with our spirit. We believe because it is written in the Gospel of John, " Whoever does not eat My Body and drink My Blood will not have life in him." We eat in a spiritual sense, in our faith. We learn this truth once again, being on the breaking of bread. With our bodies, we eat bread that we pray over, bless, and break, but it remains bread. And at the same time, by our faith, by our spirit, one might say, by our heart, as we look at Christ crucified, we absorb this truth. And the very salvation that flows from there, from the Cross, we once again experience in ourselves. Not what we get for the first time, but we experience it in ourselves. That's what I meant.

Orthodox (from the audience): I mean, you can say that this is a conclusion, right?

Baptist: The mind, and the imagination, and the heart, and the subconscious mind-everything is involved here, and the human spirit...

Orthodox (from the audience): But not the flesh...

Baptist: Not flesh. We eat bread with the flesh.

Orthodox: Well, yes, we discussed it… And you can also clarify here, I probably misunderstood a little. You have said several times that Christ has entered my heart, I live with Christ every day, He is my personal Savior. I got that right, right?

Baptist: Yes.

Orthodox: But here in the Scriptures we see, in the same place where the apostle says, in the same epistle, where he says that I have already been saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8), in the same place he says, in Ephesians 5:23, that Christ is the head of the Church, and He is also the savior of the body. In other words, the idea of personal salvation outside the Body of the Church is not actually found in the Scriptures. But your refrain was this idea that this is my Savior, for me. But what I said in the report, about the Church, was not even mentioned. What is the reason for this?

Baptist: This is due to the fact that the church does not play a decisive role in the salvation of an individual. Nowhere in the Gospel do we see even a hint of the Lord using the Church for the salvation of man.

Orthodox: Well, here it is said – Christ is the head of the Church, and He is also the Savior of the body.

Baptist: It uses only preachers who are supposed to deliver the gospel. Well, as in Romans 10, it says: "how can we believe if we have not heard? How can we hear without a preacher?" (Rom. 10: 14). That is, He uses preachers, these preachers come to a new territory... For example, preachers came to Africa for the first time, and there is still no church there. And this preacher proclaimed to these aborigines, these savage tribes… They somehow understood him, believed in him, and they were saved. That is, they were saved by the word that was spoken and by their own faith in that word. And the church... there are no temples built here, no priests serve here… How the church participates in their salvation, I don't understand it!

Orthodox: So you say that the Scriptures don't say that He is the Savior of the body, and I quoted...

Baptist: No, it's said...

Orthodox: But this is not reflected in your image of salvation?..

Baptist: But Christ is the Saviour of the body, and you say yourself that the spiritual body is the Church. He just repeats that thought again. That Christ is the Savior of the body, the Savior of the Church.

Orthodox: Yes, and we are saved not personally, but as part of the Church. Nowhere does it say that Christ is my personal Savior...

Baptist: That's what's in the Church, I don't see it anywhere...

(Comment: In his previous remark (about three seconds ago), the pastor admitted that "Christ is the Savior of the Body, the Savior of the Church", but immediately contradicts himself: although the Lord is the Savior of the Church, he does not observe that people are saved as part of the Church. Then the question arises: who, in his opinion, is the Church of Christ made up of, if not of people?)

Orthodox: And where is the phrase in Scripture that Christ is my personal Savior? Or does it save each one separately? So that such a direct expression can be: Christ is my personal Savior? Or saves each one separately...

Baptist: Well, to say that Christ is my personal Savior...

Orthodox: Well, as you said...

Baptist: Well… We need to think a little...

Orthodox: I will be very grateful. I understand your idea, and I've seen it before, but this question has been hanging around for a long time. Maybe you can tell me...

Baptist: Well, when Thomas said: "My Lord and my God," it doesn't say "Savior," but he confessed him as God. This is a little different...

Baptist (from the audience): The robber on the cross...

Orthodox: What's in there?

Baptist (from the audience): Christ said to him...

Orthodox: So these are the words of Christ. And where is "my personal Savior"?.. It's a good thing that he escaped. And I want to be saved...

Baptist (from the audience): There is also a personal relationship with the robber. There the church does not appear in any way yet. But salvation as a fact was accomplished.

Orthodox: Every epistle of the Apostle Paul begins with the words that Paul is an apostle of Jesus Christ. But this is a personal relationship with Christ...

Baptist (from the audience): Yes.

Orthodox: Well, it's good to have them. But this does not apply to the fact that Christ is a personal Savior.

Baptist (from the audience): Why?

Orthodox: Well, because we've already found out that Bodies are the Savior. As for the robber, he was saved as part of the Old Testament people. Not churches yet. And the apostles as part of the Church, and they themselves thought so.

Baptist (from the audience): Well, the fact that he is the Savior of the Body does not mean that salvation is possible only among the local church of some kind. This is not necessary. Here we are talking about the body as a whole. That is, in general, about the whole Body, at all times. That Christ accomplished salvation for the whole church. Not only the local church, not only the Russian Church there, but the entire church that has ever existed. That's all.

Orthodox: Definitely. Look, here I have a finger. The finger is connected to the eyes, nose, and heart. There is blood that feeds the finger. It is inextricably linked. Tear off the finger, cut it off, it is clear that it will no longer be connected to the body. And what does any believer eat in the Church? Here I have shown you the Sacraments. He cannot live without the sacraments. Our believer. And you?

Baptist (from the audience): In our country, the believer is primarily nourished by the Word of God.

Orthodox: This is a text, it is not a teaching of the Church...

Baptist (from the audience): Well, that's the teaching of the gospel.

Orthodox: The Gospels, not the Churches, are a text, a book. Even an atheist can take it.

Baptist (from the audience): So what does that change?

Orthodox: Changes what I say-the connection with the Church where? At you.

Baptist (from the audience): Well, look, where is the word of God preached? It's preached in the church, right? Or somewhere else? Well, it may be preached somewhere else, but it's mostly preached in church. Where can a person get an explanation of this word? Clear, understandable explanation in the church, right? When he came to church, he heard the gospel. He saw Christ crucified. He turned to Him.

Orthodox: You have the sola scriptura principle, which presupposes the self-evidence of Scripture. You are now contradicting this principle...

Baptist (from the audience): Why?

Orthodox: Well, if the Scripture is self-sufficient and self-evident, then someone's explanation, it distorts the clear understanding of the Scripture...

Baptist (from the audience): Why does it distort? If this is the correct explanation, how can it be misleading? After all, the fact is that a word is specially designed sounds, designed information that has a clear content, no matter what language it is in. It is also written down and has a clear, concrete content. If we distort this content, if we do not act according to hermeneutical principles, if we deviate from generally accepted principles… It's like the Russian language. Take the Russian language. We are starting to move away from the rules of the Russian language. We are beginning to distort the Russian language. We distort information. So it is here. If a person reads and he distorts it, he is sinning against the Word. If he reads and interprets the Scriptures as they really are, in accordance with the principles of hermeneutics, then he does not distort anything...

Orthodox: I understood. In other words, you are actually correcting the principle of "Scripture only" in favor of Scripture through the prism of a correct understanding of the Church.

Baptist (from the audience): Well, the correct understanding from the point of view of science, hermeneutics.

Orthodox: How's it going?" You said that you should come to the Church, and there the person will correctly tell you how to understand the Scriptures. But I may not understand it myself. But in the Church it is correct...

Baptist (from the audience): No, you can understand some of the basic things that are required for salvation by reading the Gospel in Russian.

Orthodox: And not the main ones, we still need to find out from you...

Baptist (from the audience): Well, we are talking about spiritual growth in general, we are talking about such things as instructions in family life, instructions in practical Christian life… All these things, it is possible that a person may not find them himself, or he may not get them well enough...

Orthodox: I get it, thanks.

Baptist: I haven't found it yet, because here...

Orthodox: I'll be very much obliged to you if you can find it.

Baptist: Paul speaks to the churches, and he speaks of common salvation...

Orthodox: Here, to struggle...

Baptist: I just don't have enough time right now...

Orthodox: Common salvation is a common place, I'm sorry. And personal salvation...

Baptist: But even if Paul himself didn't say so to other believers that Jesus Christ is my Savior, well, it's self-evident. There is a text where it is written that Christ is the Savior of all people, and especially of the faithful. The faithful are believers. I am one of the believers. So if He saves everyone, why can't I consider Him saving me personally?

Orthodox: That's right, I agree with you. But personally-this is not personally, but personally as part of everyone. And if there is a line-up, then there must be a connection, but it is not visible, I told you.

Baptist: No, well, you see how... Here was a man sitting in the Nizhny Novgorod region, in the zone. They brought the Gospel there, distributed it everywhere, in all the barracks. So the Gospel was on the nightstand. These preachers never came again. It was still there, and he hadn't opened it. He was waiting for his relatives. Relatives were going to see him on a date, he was so happy to go... and on the way all the relatives, the closest, four people crashed… this is a fact… In the Ostrovskaya zone, I heard from a person who personally knows this person. Before his eyes, everything was happening to this man.

When he didn't wait for them to go on a date, and then they told him that they had all crashed, he closed up, didn't talk to anyone for several weeks, they thought that he would not survive, almost didn't eat anything. And then he goes over to the nightstand and takes it.The New Testament and begins to read. And is silent. Reread the whole New Testament, put it down, walks around, walks around again, thinks, thinks, thinks, picked up the New Testament again, read it again. So, then the third time, when he started reading, and suddenly, as I understand it, the Holy Spirit began to reveal it to him, he understood everything...

And he prayed, and how he rejoiced, and how he began to tell everyone about God, about Christ. Is this how the Church participated in his salvation?

Orthodox: And I don't see any escape yet...

Baptist: Well, how is it if a person accepted Christ, repented of his sins, was reborn and became a Christian? That's it, he's already reading it for the third timeThe New Testament, he already knew something, and began to tell others. And we look at him, we don't understand what happened to him, and it's just the power of God's Word to affect him. The church has nothing to do with it. Well, only the Church participated in the fact that one of these preachers brought this Gospel and left it there. And the Lord directly saved him through the Word. I believe in it.

Orthodox: Well, it's your faith, it's your right. I don't see any examples of this in the New Testament. There is faith through hearing. And hearing through a preacher, not a book.

Baptist: No, well, the same Paul was saved through a personal encounter with Christ, three days of prayer, fasting... and plus prayer Ananias as a representative of the church. He prayed for him, all of it. Paul did not go to Jerusalem, nor did he coordinate his faith with the apostles. Then he went, but he started preaching right after that. He was already a saved man. The Church is in his salvation. That is, Christ did not use the whole church to...

Orthodox (from the audience): Ananias immediately baptized him. Immediately he was baptized... "All of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ" ... Ananias baptized him, and he was immediately counted among the Church.

Baptist (from the audience): You speak correctly. We do not detract in any way from the importance of the Church in the salvation of the human soul. No way. We understand what a person is... Even when a person opened the Gospel, read it, the Lord acted through the word with the Holy Spirit, and he turned to God… It is already automatically part of the Church. Only the Church of the invisible, universal, common Church, that is, the saved children. If he has believed in Christ as his Saviour, if he has accepted it by faith, he is saved.

And then he should... I even know people who, after opening the Gospel and reading it, received salvation and peace with God in personal prayer. And then they started looking for a Churchto worship together. Because it is written in the Bible that you must find that "do not leave your congregation," that there is a congregation of believers where you must do spiritual things together, worship God, read the gospel, pray, and so on.

And no one taught him, he read it himself, he started looking for it himself, he found believers, he came to the meeting, he asked to be a member of the church, we accept him. And this is how it happens. That is, in any case, a person born again, he will always look for the Church. He will have this desire to burn constantly inside him. And that's right. You can't do anything without the Church.

Baptist: A church is not a maternity hospital. The church is a family. My mother goes to the maternity hospital, gives birth there, is discharged in a couple of days, and takes the child and brings it to the family. Therefore, God gives birth through the Holy Spirit, the Word of God. And that's being born again, that's salvation. And then this saved person, maybe he repented right in the church, of course, but still it is not the Church that gives birth, but God and the Holy Spirit.

Orthodox: "...I begot you in Christ Jesus through the gospel.".. Not God gave birth, "I gave birth" ... "Child Timothy" and so on...

Baptist: There is such a thing...

Orthodox: "You have many mentors, but few fathers" ...

Baptist: Yes.

Orthodox: It seems to me that you are still slightly blurring the role of the Church in the birth of a Christian.

Baptist (from the audience): No, absolutely not...

Orthodox: Well, what about it? Maternity hospital… Maternity hospital in another place. This is not a Church.

Baptist (from the audience): This is a rough comparison, but there is also some truth in it. But in general, if the Apostle Paul says: "I begot," he probably has every right to say so, because he really was, he testified to these people about Christ, he told the Gospel, he lived with them, he taught them, and they as believers took place, you can say, on his hands. That is, he has every right to call himself a father.

Orthodox: Also, he either baptized himself, or others whom he ordained did. Remember, Ephesian Christians come and preach the gospel, but they are not baptized, only by John's baptism. And he baptizes them. So this is birth. We know in the epistle to the Romans that baptism is participation in the death of Christ at His resurrection. This is a new birth. Christening.

Baptist (from the audience): There is no direct indication that baptism and being born again are one and the same thing in the Bible.The Holy Scriptures. That's why we don't believe it. Because we are not guided by tradition in this matter, in the matter of interpretation. Only hermeneutical principles, and nothing more. For us, being born again is directly a person's repentance, awareness of their sinfulness, acceptance of Jesus Christ by faith as their personal Savior. And when the Holy Spirit, I told you my story, do you remember? How radically a person's life is changing. But, first of all, it is metanoia, as you correctly noted at the time. Consciousness changes, thinking changes. Completely and completely the goals in life change. This is the work of the Holy Spirit, an unquestionable act. And we understand this, and I have experienced it, and many of us have experienced it, and we bear witness to it. This is what we call being born again. Baptism is like a kind of confirmation, or a kind of declaration of what has happened at the level of the heart.

Orthodox: Well, you also said "personal savior". Maybe you can help Sergey and find this phrase in the Scriptures?

Baptist: I remember Paul saying, " For I know in whom I have believed, and I am sure that He is able to keep my pledge for that day." It speaks of salvation, of a personal confession of it.

Orthodox: Of course, but it is not said that he is a personal Savior. Phrase... It is clear that God saves every believer... but as part of the body.

Baptist: This is exactly the expression we need to look for. But in the composition of the body – this is your addition, there is no such thing in the Bible, in the Gospel-that God saves us in the composition of the body.

Orthodox: I'll explain my point... again and in another way: there will be a fire here. And we'll run away, and I'll run away too, and I'll take out my finger too. Not on purpose, but as part of the body. Or, on the contrary, I will not be able to bear the finger and will die. That's where he won't be saved without me. Therefore, we are saved as part of the body.

Baptist (from the audience): Amen to that! Amen to that! We are saved in the body...

Baptist: Here's a question on the body. Here Paul is talking about the olive tree and the wild twigs that have been grafted in. But here it is not written so that the olive tree gave birth to this twig. That we are part of the olives, then once appeared. And here it is written that they were broken off by unbelief, and you were grafted in... " Say, they broke off so that I could be grafted in. Well, they were broken off by unbelief, but you hold on by faith. Don't be proud, but be afraid." Where else is there? Higher is necessary. "But if some of the branches are broken off, and you, a wild olive tree, are grafted in their place and become a companion of the root and sap"...

Orthodox: Root and juice...

Baptist: But you've been vaccinated yourself. That is, the olive tree is already a church.

Orthodox: Right. Root and juice. I told you, the finger feeds on blood. The sap feeds the twig. It's all the same.

Baptist: It's clear. But there is an olive tree, and you were grafted in when you personally believed in Christ.

Orthodox: I was vaccinated because I was not with the apostles. I was born later. And when I was born, God called me to this Church. I got used to it. By the grace of God that called me. That's right.

Baptist: But this grafting to the church means that the person who is grafted in is already saved. Or, on the contrary, it turns out...

Orthodox: Juice, juice where do you have it?

Baptist: And the sap is the vine...

Orthodox: Alexander said it very well...

Baptist: And the olive tree also means Christ, but also the Church. But the vine is not the Church, it is Christ. He says, " I am the Vine." Therefore, we must first graft ourselves to the Vine, to Christ, and then graft ourselves to the Church.

Orthodox: Well, it says here that the root is Israel, in this text, I'm sorry.

Baptist: I agree that the olive tree can mean a Church.

Orthodox: Here Alexander said well that the church seems to teach the right teaching, and then corrected himself and said that we are not guided by traditions. I think I was surprised by this contradiction. You probably haven't noticed this. I still have a question, as always. Maybe my brothers'... let's give the floor to you, too.

Baptist (from the audience): You showed images of Jesus Christ with the Scriptures, the Virgin Mary with the Baby. But now a lot of people drive cars, and they usually have three images on the front panel – St. Nicholas, Christ and the Virgin Mary. We are on this issue, on icons, we are a little free in this regard. I noticed why this is the case? He began to look carefully. Just sitting there… Look, these artists drew for a reason, they knew the Scriptures...

Orthodox: Oh, how good. So you agree with us that icons help you know the Scriptures?

Baptist (from the audience): They knew the Scriptures… But how do we look at these icons? What do we see in them?

Orthodox: I tried to show you...

Baptist (from the audience): I just want to add. And connect how we believe, and how in your midst you look. Jesus Christ was pointing to the Scriptures. Remember, He said, " Search the Scriptures, for through them you hope to receive eternal life." This was said to the Pharisees, who were also pious people who lived in the Old Testament.

Next, the Virgin Mary points to Who? Like A Baby. What He says, you will do. Do you remember when Christ turned water into wine?

Orthodox: Here!

Baptist (from the audience): Nicholas the Saint also points to the Scriptures. What does this mean?

Orthodox: Tell me what?

Baptist (from the audience): If I look at this picture, I won't go any further. But if I open the Scripture, it will open Heaven to me.

Orthodox: It is also shown there, open the Scriptures and read!

Baptist (from the audience): That's right, this is how you should open it. That's where to start!

Orthodox: But if I forget myself, well, I'm busy with the fuss, I'll look at the icon, and there's the Scripture, but look, we need to open it...

Baptist: We do not forget, every day we open...

Orthodox: Well, you are perfect people...

Baptist (from the audience): I mean, life was different. There were religious parents, but we didn't have any icons. The Word of God was.

Well, we were raised freely. Then the Soviet era was, then nowhere to go to church, nowhere to be taken. But the only thing that was, before eating (we have a large family), parents got up and prayed. We, like obedient children, also got up. Well, sometimes they did. My parents were illiterate by education, but they knew the Word of God. And they tried to teach us, send us to the institute.

And that's when I'm already an adult, 35 years old, married, two children, and so it was all like this. Then one day my mother said: "Go, Kolya, to Lavrovskaya (it was 1976), they sell the Bible there." This is the issue of the Bible dedicated to the centenary of translation into Russian. I came, collected money, it was very expensive, 30 rubles here is such a Bible. I took five grand, collected money. Yes, we liked to collect books all the time, well, subscription editions, as it always was.

Well, I say, Mother, here, take it. She hands me one... Well, here's a present for you. That's how it started. You know, I wanted to read it right away, too, and then I felt sleepy, but I started reading it anyway. You know, in the end, God sees through it. I havenцерковь't gone to church yet, so what does that mean? Probably, each of you... you came to God for a reason, someone taught you...

It happened from difficulties in life. Something has been deposited in our soul, we begin to cry out to God, and so I do. My mother was paralyzed, I came home from work, my sisters took care of her, she's a woman. I ask, how? Well, in a month, it will be clear. We don't know, or maybe it will end. And this is where God began to work in me. I go out (in the winter it was) and say: "God, if you fix your mom, I'll be right behind You."

Well, so it went, and we read a little, that's all. Then, when I got up to pray, I don't remember, just that they came, but I went home, came to visit them. They prayed there, brother and father. I went into the room and knelt down. When they finished praying, I began to pray. I don't remember what I said. But it came out of my heart.

You know why I'm talking about icons, the word is different, and you know that it works independently. And then I went to church, I had the opportunity, I had a difficult time in this regard. To visit the church, there was an obstacle.

Well, it's all the same there was a young brother talking, and Dad invited him for a cup of tea in the evening, he came from somewhere out of town. I think I'll listen to them, the brothers, talk there. And this young man says, listen, brother, what if all this is not true?

It is now that we are so happy, talking about God, all believers. And then they kept quiet "in a rag". He says if it's not true, it's all old wives ' tales. But God is alive. I've already touched It. My blood boiled, you know. I told him I wouldn't even want to live. He paused. This is the path I've been following for forty years now. There are no images, although I watch and listen to the channel "Spas". All this is correct. You know, before this meeting, I was also worried, I think what should I say? Open the Gospel of John, chapter 17. Jesus prays, "Father, as You are in Me, and I in You, so they will be one", so what is our unity? Not even in the tradition. Well, of course, every family has its own traditions. Even one family, brothers, relatives, still live in their own way...

Orthodox: And what is the unity? What is the true unity?

Baptist (from the audience): I don't understand...

Orthodox: What is unity?

Baptist (from the audience): Единство-то во Христе. And in God. Holy Trinity.

Orthodox: And here, do you know what it is? Also in Christ, but through the grace of God, which gives us something to drink. And it is taught in the Sacraments. Here's the difference.

Baptist (from the audience): So it is grace that has descended.

Orthodox: That's the difference between us and you.

Baptist (from the audience): And why? What is the difference? Do you not have this grace?

Orthodox: Here's the deal… Here we are now eating with you, right? Although we ate yesterday and the day before yesterday, but why constantly? Because it is necessary to maintain the body composition. And emotional, too. So is the grace of God. And it is more and more necessary to absorb it through the Sacraments, becoming stronger.

Baptist (from the audience): Sure. I agree with you. But the Lord says: "Stay awake!" I've been talking about everything, recently I talked to my brothers… I have a lot of brothers who were in the zone, you know how the devil knocks people down, they went through it. I say, have you forgotten who the prince of this world is? And we forget, too. We think we have a church, we are doing well. No. And especially those who serve, the attacks are even greater. Therefore, it is important. And if we'll only be divided, now, remember that Christ said, " Simon, Peter, Satan asked you to sow like wheat, but I prayed for you, that your faith might not fail, and that you might once strengthen the brethren." Why someone in Christ? Paul was walking, but there was no gospel. He only said that he had also revealed to him what the other apostles had told him. But there was no Gospel. And these Churches were then formed only through their testimony. The messages were sent later. And the Gospel came later. And we are happy people, we have discovered wealth that we did not even know then.

Orthodox: So it turns out that the way of salvation, which began on the Day of Pentecost, was first without texts, and then with texts?

Baptist (from the audience): I didn't quite get it.

Orthodox: The way of salvation, which began on the Day of Pentecost, was first without the text of the New Testament, and then the texts appeared. So, it turns out that the oral sermon is more important than the texts?

Baptist (from the audience): What are we going to say?

Baptist: Equally important.

Baptist (from the audience): Why ... the text and the word are one and the same thing, only spoken and written.

Orthodox: Don't tell me…So I asked you, and you corrected me? Right? Well, that I misunderstood your point.

Baptist (from the audience): Well, I said that the text and the word are one and the same...

Orthodox: Yes, I see, I see. I'm not arguing. And if I read the book and misunderstood it, it won't correct me.

Baptist (from the audience): If I read the book, yes...

Orthodox: She can't talk..."

Baptist (from the audience): But can we pray?

Orthodox: We can.

Baptist (from the audience): Well, they should...

Orthodox: Well, of course, there is...

Baptist (from the audience): Why, you yourself said, " Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God." We have to check every time. It's not just that I've come, you listen to me there... you have to listen to the Word of God, you have to церковьrun to church... That's right. This is true.

Orthodox: But don't make a mistake in the Church. Because there are Charismatics, there are Pentecostals, there are Adventists, there are separated Baptists, there are registered Baptists, there are Orthodox, there are Catholics, there are Anglicans, there are all others.

Baptist (from the audience): There is no one... there is the Lord and the faithful people.

Baptist: If I know Christ personally, no one will knock me down.

Baptist (from the audience): And we set up the fences ourselves. That was the idea. We set up fences, you can't see anything through the fences. What are you doing there? Who do they pray to? We also have a fence, we are fenced off, we have no icons, no saints... Then what? And when we get closer to gorny, we won't see any fences. We will be open. We are the ones who are different here. What are we going to do? Not in order to somehow argue or prove to another, although we want to. It's true. Yes. This is a value...

Orthodox: He speaks well...

Baptist: In a couple of days, Nikolai Nikolaevich will be eighty-two years old.

Orthodox: How good, yes, how much I've seen.

Baptist: He's still in our pulpit, preaching.

Orthodox: Well, I can hear it, I can hear it.

Baptist: thank god!

Baptist (from the audience): Well, dear ones, it is a blessing that we are talking about God. And I love you very much... As my brother said, I understood everything. I got it, too. I understand everything perfectly, everything you said. Only, you know, well, it's different, as I understand it, it's already different.

Orthodox: Here is able to say the same...

Baptist: And here are some more questions… You drew the day of an Orthodox Christian, from the point of view of your teaching.

Orthodox: Yes.

Baptist: And your personal day, here, can you draw?

Orthodox: Come on, let Father Dmitry tell you.

Baptist: Just like you personally... Especially in the context of our topic… How is your personal relationship with Christ going, today or yesterday?

Orthodox (from the audience): Well, it all depends on the moment of some kind. That is, of course, the day begins with a prayer. We get up, well, if we talk about ourselves, right? That is, I get up, pray, and read the Gospel.

Baptist: How do you pray? A memorized prayer?

Orthodox (from the audience): In different ways. That is, part of it is prayer... Well, there is a morning and evening rule. This is what the Church recommends to us as an option. A certain sample.

Baptist: So what does the Church recommend to you for every dayЦерковь?

Orthodox (from the audience): No. It's the same thing. For example, "Our Father" ...

Baptist: Oh, so it's the same prayer every day?

Orthodox (from the audience): This is probably individual, because there is a standard morning and evening rule. There are also prayers that mark a specific day. These can be prayers dedicated to the holiday. As you well noted, you celebrate Christmas from December 24 to January 7.

We also have such a concept as pre-holiday and post-holiday. That is, before the holiday, we have special prayers that reveal the meaning of this holiday. We thank God for something, we ask for forgiveness in something there, well, some comparisons are made. There is a period of the holiday itself, then, for example, a post-holiday, that is, when we again remind ourselves of what event we celebrated there and what we did. I personally support the double prayer. That is, on the one hand, I pray in the words that the Church recommends, according to the prayer book. And there is a part of my personal prayers, my feelings, gratitude, repentance. What I want to say to God today, for example.

Baptist: You have it, don't you? Absolutely...

Orthodox: Yes, everyone probably has it.

Orthodox (from the audience): Well, the question is, what am I filled with today, right? Or how my day went, if it's the end of the day. Or, what I want to ask, what to tune in to. Well, these are already some of your own experiences, requests, and so on.

Then, this readingThe Holy Scriptures. Now I read a chapter of the Gospel every day, a chapter of the Old Testament. And I really liked the interpretation of Theophan the Recluse for every day. Every day, the Church offers us a passage of Holy Scripture to think about. Here is such a good book, where Theophan the Recluse gives reflections on this text. This is just for every day. Every day you can read it and, accordingly, scroll through it all.

Well, and then, most often, since I am a priest, I periodically perform a service. I arrive at the church and approximately there from half past seven to half past ten, eleven o'clock, there is a divine service where we pray.

Baptist: Is it every morning? Or only on weekends?

Orthodox (from the audience): It all depends on the routine. This is about three or four times a week. On Sunday it is mandatory, well, and then later in the week two or three times. It depends on a certain schedule.

Baptist: If there are big holidays...

Orthodox priest (from the audience): In our church, services are held every day. We have four priests and, accordingly, the whole week is divided between us. Let's say today I am, the next day-another, and so on. Plus, since each of us still has separate obeisances, if there are any tasks of our own, then we regulate all this, regulate it.

Because sometimes a person cannot, say, a clergyman, perform a divine service, then, accordingly, another person conducts it. Well, then we have different ministries, respectively. They already depend on the tasks that the bishop sets for us or our senior priest in the community, who also distributes some of our tasks. That is, it all depends on the specific day, how it all goes.

In general, I always have a prayer service with a conversation on Tuesday evening, on Wednesday most often there is a liturgy in the morning, and on Wednesday evening there is a conversation with young people. On Wednesday, most often we read the Holy Scripture, the entire New Testament has now been read. We are now in the second round. And, accordingly, with some arguments, reflections, experiences, interpretations of how this text relates to our lives.

At the moment, every Thursday I go to the rehabilitation center for a group conversation. There are drug addicts, alcoholics, gambling addicts and other addicted people. I talk to them about Christ. Well, this is how it has already happened, in addition to Thursday, I also come there once a week for individual conversations. It's just that many people have no experience of communicating with believers, and they say: we just want to talk to you as a person. Well, someone really has some spiritual requests.

Baptist: Where do you have it?

Orthodox priest (from the audience): In Nerekhta. I personally go to Nerekhta.

Baptist: Do you go there every week? This is a serious initiation.

Orthodox priest (from the audience): Two or three times a week. As it happens, I've been doing this for the seventh year. At first I went there once a month, but then it became more and more frequent.

Baptist: At the moment, how many people do you have in a rehabilitation center?

Orthodox priest (from the audience): More than 40 people.

Baptist: It's a big rehabilitation center, yes...

Orthodox priest (from the audience): Well, there are usually 40 people there, give or take. Someone checks out, someone comes in. Somewhere in the order of 40 people so stays. Then every Thursday I meet with the cadet corps, with the guys, since last year. We also talk about faith, about Christ, about the moral life, and so on. Plus, we go to schools where there are...

Baptist: You have already begun to talk more about service than about personal relationships. Well, I get it, thanks.

Orthodox priest (from the audience): As for personal communication...

Orthodox: End of the day yet...

Orthodox priest (from the audience): Well, I'll finish now. Now this has happened to me recently, for several years now... Maybe it's not good to say that, but I've moved on to something... In addition to prayers, when I stand before God, I am somehow more focused on worship and so on, now I communicate with Christ... Well, this is my most frequent interlocutor. On a daily basis, I have no more contact with anyone than with Christ. And this communication, because it all happens spiritually, is basically a mental communication. Well, that's even how I got here.

Well, it's a long story to tell, but there were such circumstances. They just changed. And I see this providence of God, where I reason with Christ, communicate with Him, and I see how He builds... That is, there are some things that are generally unrealistic, which should not have happened. Here, everyone says, is Ivan Susanin Street and so on. I came here, I drove half the city. And I didn't get up anywhere. I made it. Well, honestly! I was absolutely certain that I would be late and not arrive.

But one day, one time, one time, and I see that it all comes out. And please, the Lord opens it to you. So I now have most of my prayers going on in my heart and mind. I can't say what I have... apart from, say, the internal evening rule and the divine service, I don't have any moments when I pray from the point of view of how I got up somewhere... it always happens in my heart, in my mind. You're worried about something... I just started turning myself over to God more often. I saw that It regulates my life. And I just, roughly speaking, do not interfere with God in this process. And there is the end of the day, in fact, when prayer is performed in the evening.

And we always have a moment of repentance in our evening prayers. That is, confessions, when you analyze the day, ask God for forgiveness in some ways, because, unfortunately,you still notice some of your mistakes. Even here, before I went, I made a lot of fuss. And the Lord is so fast... I just got here and I think, what was I fussing about? I used to fuss even longer before...

Baptist: And some still fuss further...

Orthodox priest (from the audience): I'm talking about the internal state. That is, there is some such experience. And then you realize that the Lord will build everything. And you just need to calm down. And everything will be as you need it. Or as the Lord will grant it. Here. Well, it is clear that we pray before each meal, at the end, before training. When, for example, some classes are held, the reading of the Holy Scriptures, the entire period of prayer is performed.

Orthodox: Now let's listen to someone from your side. Personal relationship with Christ in the life of a Baptist. One day...

Baptist: Now you're up. Right from the very morning...

Baptist (from the audience): My personal relationship with Christ includes prayer in the morning. And reading the Scriptures is mandatory every day. And in the evening we pray with the whole family. That is, my wife and I are praying for the child, for our common needs, and now we are doing our best. If I'm at work listening to audio, then I listen to a lot of sermons. My job allows you to work at the same time and listen, and ponder. And before that, I worked at a job where it was impossible to listen, because it required complete concentration. I mean, if I listen, I'll make mistakes at work. And you can lose your fingers. Well, it's at that job. You can work on this one, and everything will be fine. I mean, when I get home, I think I've already read the Word of God, prayed, and listened to a lot of things at work.

I get home at 7 pm. But I have a wife, so I still read with her in the evening. We pray and try now every day. This is probably prayer, reading, reading the Word of God. This is basic, yes.

And, of course, in the church. That is, it is during the week, on Monday-fraternal evenings. On Thursday-small group, youth on Saturday. And Sunday, of course.

Orthodox: This is a certain amount of time, or just like that: "God bless!" and that's it, or it's ten or fifteen minutes...

Baptist (from the audience): There is no clear time when there will be a prayer. Here I get up, very often it happens that in a hurry there is a prayer, very short. That is, in the morning. But I try to spend more time in the evening.

Orthodox: Alone or with your spouse?

Baptist (from the audience): In the morning? Well, in the morning, in the evening. In the morning alone, in the evening with his wife, yes.

Orthodox: That's how you pray now, isn't it? That is, one says, and then together "Amen!" Or what?

Baptist (from the audience): No, no. I pray together, "Amen!" and then she prays. One at a time, yes. In turn.

Baptiste: Well, it's more difficult for them, the ones who are at work. When they leave at nine o'clock, they can barely get home at seven o'clock. Seven o'clock, at best. At best. Loaded with work ... poor devils… But they always try to be on the fraternal ones.

Baptist( from the audience): Well, I understand Dmitry. I also invoke God during the day. Well, even when you work, you can communicate with God. Well, in the evening, I have children. I read them the children's Bible and tell them about it too. As if before going to bed. We also pray before eating. And I have children, the eldest is four years old. And she, too, when there is a desire, she also prays, thanks God. I say,"You have something to thank God for, don't you?" She says, " Yes, there is." And she prays. Well, I'm not forcing you, go ahead and pray. I say, "Do you want to pray?" Well, she wants to pray. My wife and I read in the evenings, and we also do our best. Sometimes she goes to work at five in the morning, and I'm there at half past eight. Well, it doesn't work together. Well, we work together, listen проповедиto various sermons at work.

That's how you said "I pray to God", even mentally connect during the day always, and also try to trust God more, not to make a fuss, because God will still do it in His own way. There are many plans in the heart of man, but what God has provided for will be fulfilled. And we talk more about our difficulties. I'm currently building a house, and I've already prepared everything.

Here the concrete is being delivered tomorrow, and then it's minus nineteen. I say, well, God, if you want it, then it will work, or I'll fill it up in the spring... And I see that next week it's already minus one, minus two. I'm like, well, I'll fill it up this year. If you like, then I'll fill it up. If you don't want to, then we'll be patient, so I also trust you...

Orthodox (from the audience): Where are you building a house?

Baptist (from the audience): In the First village.

Orthodox: That's interesting, you told it so well. That's why проповедиyou listen to sermons? After all, this is not a personal relationship with Christ... personal is prayer.

Baptist (from the audience): We also pray and read the Bible.

Orthodox: No, just as an element of a personal relationship, that's what you called listening to sermons. But a sermon is not Holy Scripture and not personal prayer. But you think this is an element of a relationship with Christ.

Baptist (from the audience): Well, I guess so. But Peter also preached...

Orthodox: I'm not arguing, I'm just trying to understand...

Baptist (from the audience): Yes, this is a big category. Not like a personal relationship. Personal is still when I am the Lord, that is, I turn in prayer when I read the Scriptures: "Lord, help me understand something. You can say open up." That's when I read it. And I listen to explanatory sermons in order to understand some difficult moments for me. I even have a paper Bible when I'm reading, and my wife and I read the paper Bible in the evening. We make notes. And more often I do this, hop, I'll tick something off so that I can figure it out later. Sometimes the time is already late, so you read it and think, okay, I'll mark it, then I'll figure it out. More details in the morning, maybe there. Well, we need to devote some time to this. You can just read the chapter quickly and talk in general. But specifically, if you take two verses at a time, then you can study it more deeply.

Orthodox: Well, and the Scripture, it's self-evident. Why here are some more explanations?

Baptist: Obviously. But there are some historical contexts...

(Comment: The pastor directly contradicts the Baptist axiom " Scripture only." It says: "But there are some historical contexts...", i.e. it goes beyond the scope of Scripture itself. In fact, the Church is a living organism, having its being in history. Of course, she always had this story and faith, including the first fifteen hundred years. For Baptists, the real story begins only with the Reformation.)

Orthodox: No, it is a question of not understanding the Scriptures.

Baptist( from the audience): There are people who obviously read, but for me personally, yes, when I started reading, I didn't understand a lot of things at all. Well, yes, there are narrative texts that...

Baptist: Although I told you the entire Bible twice from beginning to end when you were little. Then nothing is clear...

Orthodox: So think...

Baptist (from the audience): Do you recommend reading the Word of God to your parishioners?

Orthodox: Well, I was just telling you, my brothers said that they seem to have the same thing.

Baptist: No, I'm just a newcomer, I came here from Moldova. I lived with relatives who, well, they are ardently Orthodox, they keep all the posts. But I lived with them for more than a year. I've never seen them read the Bible. At most, they read psalms there.

Orthodox: This was in an outdated time, and now everyone is reading it.

Baptist (from the audience): No, that was about five years ago. And she told me not to read it, because you would misunderstand. Well, I didn't see it. Nor did they pray in their own words.

Orthodox: So she's smarter than the God who gave us this text, right?

Baptist( from the audience): Well, yes, but she also works at the church, and her son also helped in communion there. Well, why are you laughing so hard? It's like I'm telling you some kind of fairy tale right now.

Orthodox: I'm not laughing at you. I wonder here at her advice not to read the Bible, which is the Word of God.

Baptist( from the audience): Well, I'm also surprised.

Orthodox: That is, the smile is justified by this. I have already told you that we must distinguish the teaching of the Church and the practice of the Church from the opinions of individuals. Here is the teaching of the Church that two priests have told you that it is necessary to read to the faithful The Holy Scriptures. Isn't that right, Father?"

Orthodox priest( from the audience): If he doesn't read, he repents of it.

Baptist (from the audience): I just listen to you and look at the lives of the Christians I know, it's like something else entirely.

Baptist: This is because they are in Moldova...

Baptist (from the audience): No, here in Russia, across the country...

Orthodox (from the audience): This is the difference when you see a Christian who does not live so Orthodox, who does not live according to the teachings of the Church. That's the difference. If he still tries, he comes through his life, following, trying to follow the teaching of the Church, he comes to the fullness that has just been described. This aspiration, this is the peak to which every Christian is called to become a saint. And we are all called to become saints, and we must follow this teaching. If you don't want to become a saint, live as you want. And it turns out to be a temptation for outsiders, as we get.

Orthodox priest (from the audience): Yes. This is the eleventh year I have been engaged in so-called catechetical conversations, that is, I talk to people who join the Orthodox Church or baptize their children. And, unfortunately, for the eleventh year now, everything is promised like bunnies, but, unfortunately, very few people fulfill it.

So when I see people in front of me, I can't stop them, when they tell me that we have understood everything, we will all change, and so on. But, unfortunately, most often people, let's say roughly, deceive, they are deceived in their own desires, so they do not show them. And so the Church, at least even for hyper-employed people, announces at least short passages of Holy Scripture that a person must, in theory, read, if he is completely loaded there-overloaded, read and somehow reason about them. This must be the subject of a sermon during the divine service.проповедь Books are allocated for this purpose.

You can even go to a regular store where you can see an Orthodox calendar, for example. And there are very often passages of Holy Scripture placed there.

Baptist (from the audience): And it is the same as our calendar. Someone gave it to me, just like here.

Baptist: We wanted to give these calendars of ours as a gift, I think there's nothing wrong with that...

Orthodox priest (from the audience): And sometimes with an explanation… I'm just saying that what people declare isn't always true for them. Here I will briefly tell you an example. I was on one trip and had a long argument with a Muslim. Well, they argued with the combat initiative. And a girl jumped down from the shelf. She looked at us, at our heated discussions. She says, " I'm actually a Hare Krishna." I asked her three basic questions about Hinduism. She didn't answer any questions. I know this is the first time she's heard about it. Although it's just a foundation. And I told her that you know, you are as much a Hare Krishna as I am a ballet dancer. To which she, hiding the cross – I just didn't notice it – says: "This is probably what you thought, because I'm wearing a cross, but my dad put this cross on me. I have to wear it. I'm actually a Hindu." I say, " I tell you again that you simply don't know the teachings, but you call yourself a Hare Krishna."

Baptist (from the audience): Is she a Hare Krishna or a Hindu? A Hindu is not a Hare Krishna...

Orthodox priest (from the audience): She called herself a Hare Krishna. I mean everything by Hinduism...

Baptist (from the audience): Hinduism is a pagan religion with many gods.

Orthodox: Krishnaism is also a pagan religion.

Orthodox priest (from the audience): That's not what I'm talking about right now. She called herself a Hare Krishna. I just made a slip of the tongue. I say, you are as much a Hare Krishna as I am a ballet dancer. That is, a person can declare himself...

Baptist: I'm sorry, Evgeny, I could have explained it that way. You ask why oral sermons are needed?

Orthodox: Yes, yes.

Baptist: Well, we're going to preach every Sunday, we're listening, we're being edified. I understand that the Gospel is pure bread. And bread is needed for life. But if we eat only bread every day, then our body requires both fruits and vegetables, and some salads, and so on. I understand that the Gospel is pure bread, it is absolutely true. And all the other sermons, if they are not heretical, if they talk about Christ, then this is additional food. From this food, too, we assimilate Christ, get to know Him, and grow spiritually. We reinforce our soul for every day...

Orthodox: I, if I were a kid, I would choose fruit...

Baptist: But still, bread is more important...

Orthodox: My parents would have told me so...

Orthodox (from the audience): Returning to the topic of our meeting today, namely personal relationships with Christ, I would like to ask a question and understand how personal they are, how much closeness there is with Christ. Here is an example of an addressable address, come on, you haven't talked about it yet… How close is your relationship with Christ? Can you call him your friend?

Orthodox: A friend of Christ. Is Christ your friend or no friend?

Baptist (from the audience): A friend, of course… There is personal knowledge of Christ, dependence on Christ, this is, of course, a friend. Because compared to friendship, you're always...

Orthodox (from the audience): I'll ask you a different question… Can you say, for example, that when you meet Christ in Jerusalem on high, you will go up to Him, embrace Him, pat Him on the shoulder, and tell Him, I have finally met You, my dear Friend?

Baptist: Of course, we don't have Christ as a friend as the Charismatics, that's for sure, or the Pentecostals.

Orthodox (from the audience): That's what I wanted to clarify...

Baptist: He's a friend. Because He called us friends. He says ," I don't call you slaves, I call you friends. You are my friends, if you do..."

Comment: Christ gave a specific condition by which a person can be called a friend of God– this is the fulfillment of His commandments. And how do Baptists fulfill the commandment, for example, about baptism for the remission of sins (Acts 2: 38)? Where do they practice the Eucharistic realism (John 6: 55) that the Lord Himself explicitly commanded? Do they teach the necessity of works to achieve salvation (James 2: 26)? Do they believe in the holy Sacraments according to the commandment? (Mt 28: 19; Jn 3: 5, 7: 37-39; 2 Corinthians 1: 21; Mt 26: 26; Jn 20: 21-23; James 5: 14-15; 1 Timothy 3: 2; Titus 1: 7; 1 Peter 2: 25), etc.? The formal fulfillment of moral decrees alone cannot be considered a complete fulfillment of Christ's commandments. Thus, Baptists cannot be called friends of God, first, because of their spontaneous origin, and secondly, because of their opposition to the commandments of the Lord.

Orthodox: The Commandments of God… So only faith!

Baptist: But not "korefan" of some kind, no...

Baptist (from the audience): Faith is manifested through the fulfillment of the commandments...

Orthodox: Only faith...

Baptist (from the audience): Only faith, but faith is manifested in life through the fulfillment of the commandments.

Orthodox: Are you close to Orthodoxy…It's dangerous!

Baptist (from the audience): Are you close to being a Baptist… It's dangerous!

Baptist: When we talk about Christ, about personal interaction with Him, we already feel that we are getting closer. We already feel it when we talk about Christ.

Baptist (from the audience): And I wanted to ask you about the traditions of the fathers, since you know more about their lives… Usually they are directly praised, revered, quoted. More than the Gospel, they notice and listen to sermons through Orthodox channels. Cyril also speaks when there is a sermon on Saturdays. And often references to the holy Fathers. I wonder why the same word is only written in the Gospel… For some reason, the words of Christ are transmitted through...

Orthodox (from the audience): Did the apostles only quote Scripture in their sermons?

Baptist (from the audience): No, why... no, I understand that this is not necessary. But I wanted to ask, why do I have such an interest? These fathers, how were they in the presence of God, in what condition? Because they lived to a very old age… Here I am too the old man has already lived… How old was it… Some kind of self… I've achieved something. Some kind of service.… It's already that age now. I think we should go home soon. And this is the same thing... Here's how I read about some that they were very humble and meek...

Orthodox: Who! Saints? Yes, absolutely.

Baptist (from the audience): They are humble and meek. This is what drew people who longed for Jesus, for them. They never exalted themselves; on the contrary, they instructed. You know, I have such an anthem, I believe that this is my anthem. It begins with these words: "I stand before You like a beggar on the porch… I am waiting for retribution... " That is, the meaning is that we are beggars in the face of God.

Baptist: No one disputes this.

Orthodox: But this is not the spirit of charismatics at all, if so.

Baptist: We believe in the beatitude. The first beatitude is " blessed are the poor in spirit." That's how we all try to live.

Orthodox: So it turns out that you are a Scriptural Pentecostal, but Christ is completely different?

Baptist: Here's a little question...

Orthodox: I told you in my report about the other Jesus...

Baptist: Christ, Who is described in the Gospel, is our only one. If you believe in the gospel, in the Christ who is in the Gospel, and we believe in Him. And if we believe in the Christ that the Holy Fathers have drawn for us, It may already be distorted.

Orthodox: So when you draw It in your sermon, you don't distort It, but they distort it in their sermons? Do I understand you correctly?"

Baptist: When we preach, we say, " Be more thoughtful than those of Thessalonica." You, as Bereans, should check whether we preach accurately, whether we do not distort?

Orthodox: Yes...yes… But at the same time, your sermon is better than the holy Fathers… Because this is definitely Christ, not distorted...

Baptist: I don't know them, I haven't read their sermons, your holy fathers. Our holy fathers, Spurgeon, for example, preached very well. I agree with Spurgeon on everything except Calvinism, except this point.

Orthodox: Except that you can lose salvation or not lose it, and so everything is fine.

Baptist: And so everything is cool.

Orthodox: But if you made a mistake, you lost it, and you didn't notice it yourself…And that's it, and to eternal torment...

Baptist (from the audience): The words "losing salvation" are fundamentally wrong… Leave...

Orthodox: Oh, you Arminians!

Baptist: Fall away, can it fall away...

Baptist (from the audience): Just leave it… To lose is not to lose accidentally...

Orthodox: Do you have an Arminian community?

Baptist (pastor): Yes, we have… I'm not an Arminian, but I do believe in falling away. And this is a Calvinist sitting here. And we get along, and everything is fine. But I'm the first pastor, so he doesn't preach about Calvinism.

Orthodox: But imagine...

Baptist: He is saved by the grace of Christ. In him Christ lives, and in me Christ lives.

Orthodox: Some of you are wrong, right? One hundred percent!

Baptist: Well, that...Yes, we don't know who.

Orthodox: Well, clearly, not you, you're the senior… You're a junior, you're wrong! Well, what if you do come to the door of the Kingdom of heaven, and the Lord says: "You were wrong, get out of here."

Baptist: No, no, He wouldn't say that. We understand the question of salvation in the same way. It turns out that the loss, not the loss of salvation, is the steadfastness of the saints. This is a secondary question that we will get clarity on in the Heavenly Kingdom. Here's a little question for Alan. Alan, you told me when we talked to you personally that when you were still in Ossetia, you experienced such a serious shock in the hospital, and you prayed there. Have you ever had a meeting with Christ? If so, when? There?

Orthodox (from the audience): That's when it happened, and I didn't even have a Bible in my hand, by the way.

Baptist: You haven't been to an Orthodox Church yet.

Orthodox: No, but it was a summoning grace. The Lord touched me, really, felt Him, really felt Him. I just heard that there is a Christ. At that moment, I experienced It. I could feel His presence right there, I was on my knees, I knew that if I raised my head, I would see Him... it was such a strong experience. But the Lord then began to guide me. And I ended up going back to the Orthodox Church.

Baptist: And yet you believe that, only after you... Wait, were you baptized as a child in an Orthodox Church? When you left the Pentecostals for Orthodoxy, were you no longer baptized? The Orthodox didn't baptize you anymore? That is, they recognized that baptism...

Orthodox (from the audience): We have one baptism… We believe in one baptism.

Baptist: But you were baptized by the Pentecostals.

Orthodox (from the audience): Yes, unfortunately… And repented of it...

Baptist: No, I just think that... it turns out that you were baptized as a child.

Orthodox (from the audience): Yes, in 2004.

Baptist: Received Communion in the Church of Christ… And a personal encounter with Christ...

Orthodox (from the audience): I didn't take communion. I took communion for the first time in 2021.

Baptist: If you were baptized as a child, then you have already been introduced to the Church.

Orthodox (from the audience): But I was baptized consciously, because there was a bad spiritual influence on me.

Baptist: But you were brought into the fold of the Church by this infant baptism, right?

Orthodox (from the audience): Yes, yes. A personal meeting took place in adulthood. In 2004, when I was baptized, I received the seed of grace, which fell into the ground. But it began to grow, the soil was prepared, much later.

Baptist: No, you've always had it growing. And when you were with the Pentecostals, it was growing...

Orthodox (from the audience): It grew...

Baptist: You are already denying it, but God is working.

Orthodox (from the audience): The Lord guided me, of course, this is the providence of God. Unfortunately, I couldn't come straight to Orthodoxy. The Lord just led me in a roundabout way.

Baptist: What I mean is that the Lord touches people even without the church, and the word is sown, and grows, and is born again, and before a person gets into the church, a person already receives salvation. I believe that with all my heart.

Orthodox: Let's ask him. It's about him. Alan, when you were first baptized, were you saved? What do you think?

Baptist: As a child?

Orthodox (from the audience): No.

Orthodox: You are counting now, your opinion is today's. Were you saved on the day of your baptism? They weren't. And then when you went to the Pentecostals, were you saved?

Orthodox (from the audience): I thought so.

Orthodox: This is understandable... What do you think now? Were you saved?

Orthodox (from the audience): No.

Orthodox: Are you saved now?

Baptist: How can you say that you have a personal relationship with Christ if you are not sure of your salvation?

Orthodox (from the audience): I'm sure of It! But I'm not sure of myself...

Baptist: We are truly sorry for you. I'm truly sorry...

(Comment: Prov. Macarius the Great writes: "Woe to the soul that does not feel its sores and thinks of itself, because of the great, immeasurable damage of malice, that it is completely alien to the damage of malice. Such a soul is no longer visited and treated by a good Doctor, but as one who has left his sores arbitrarily without care for them, and thinks of himself that he is healthy and blameless. They do not demand, "He says –" the health of the doctor, but the ill ones." Indeed, in the dark it is impossible to tell whether the room is swept or full of all sorts of filth and filth, but as the light appears in it, dust and dirt begin to appear and the person begins to see clearly. As the light increases, more and more flaws, irregularities, places brought to a deplorable state are revealed. In the same way, when a person ascends the spiritual ladder to the Light (John 8: 12), "which enlightens every man who comes into the world" (John 1:9), he reveals more objectively his plight. Approaching God, against the background of His holiness, a person clearly contemplates all the darkness with which he is actually absorbed. Moving away from the Light, the flaws fade and dissolve with the darkness. Baptists, as we can see, are convinced of their own holiness and salvation, which proves how far they are from the true Light, being in the abyss of darkness and pride.)

Orthodox (from the audience): I am not sure of myself that tomorrow, for example, I can fall away... Even those who say "cancer" are worthy of gehenna of fire, as it is written in the Scriptures...

Orthodox: Can I ask you something? Sorry, I remembered the image. Now a Pharisee and a tax collector went in to pray.

Baptist: Right.

Orthodox: Did the Pharisee communicate with God?

Baptist: Yes.

Orthodox: Was he a member of God's people?

Baptist: Yes.

Orthodox: Was his prayer pleasing to God?

Baptist: No.

Orthodox: That is, a person can think about himself...

Baptist: That's understandable… He relied on his own personal merits, and not on the mercy of God...

Orthodox: The main thing is that his personal opinion was that he was a righteous man, but for God he was not a righteous man. Can't this happen to you?

Baptist: If I say, "Lord, I thank you that I am not like these Orthodox Christians, I am a Baptist, I have been going to church since childhood, I know the Bible and believe in everything," then I rely on my own righteousness. But if I say, " Lord, I have no merit, I am worthy of punishment, I am a sinner, I am the first of sinners, but I believe with all my heart that I have a Savior, Jesus Christ." I rely on the salvation that Christ accomplished on the Cross of Calvary. So I thank You for saving me. You are my Savior, and I hold on to You by faith. And I try to be poor in spirit.

Orthodox: This is the first time in all our meetings that I have not heard you say that Orthodox Christians are all fornicators.

Baptist: No, we won't say that again. I won't talk to Sasha.

Orthodox: Yes, yes, yes. And not only he, but others were talking. This is the first time. What am I talking about?

Baptist: I said it too, but not like that.

Orthodox: Yes, yes, I did, I did.

Baptist: But I didn't say that's all. And I asked, why does this happen?

Baptist (from the audience): I also didn't say that everyone...

Orthodox: Well, almost everything. Well, except for us here.

Baptist (from the audience): Statistics of this.

Orthodox: Here, most of them. Here, here, here.

Orthodox (from the audience): I understand a little why you would claim personal salvation. Because when Christ really died on the cross, He taught everyone salvation. That is, He gave us salvation.

Baptist: He accomplished salvation for all.

Orthodox (from the audience): Yes, He has accomplished the salvation of all people.

Baptist: For all people...

Orthodox: Opened the possibility of salvation for everyone...

Orthodox (from the audience): The question is whether we can learn it. Why, as I understand it, you always talk about personal salvation. And I, for example, had this image. Well, more precisely, I remembered. After all, there was Israel, and before they came in, God led them and led them forty years in the wilderness… And when Israel had not yet entered the promised land. The Lord promised them the land. That is, it is the same promise of salvation. When the Lord says: "You will go in, and I will deliver you into the hands of your enemies, these, and these, and these, I will deliver into your hands." I mean, they already know, yeah, we'll win. Well, roughly speaking. That is, they already know about their victory, because for God this victory has already been accomplished. So is salvation for us. But the question is. Did they relax at this point? They didn't go to war? They didn't take up arms? They gave up and relaxed...

Orthodox: And some even died.

Orthodox (from the audience): Yes, many died. Many have failed to grasp this, to see this victory and this salvation, to see the promised land. But they went into battle after Joshua, yes, and fought, and only then they went in, took one city, another city. That is, they reached...

Baptist: "The kingdom of God is taken by force..."

Orthodox (from the audience): Yes, yes, yes, including this. They didn't drop their weapons. Just as Paul says, "Put on the weapons of God to resist in the evil day..." What kind of evil day will it be? When do we march for the victory of the evil one?

Baptist: I get it, you're just explaining how you believe. Yes. Understood.

Orthodox (from the audience): And not only that, I was just thinking about your words, why you say that you are already saved...

Orthodox (from the audience): Although you haven't gone into battle yet...

Baptist: No, we're going into battle. We fight against sin, demons, and Satan, and we preach the gospel...

Orthodox: Let's hear it, let's hear it.

Baptist: But in your personal relationship with Christ, in your personal prayer, if it is a prayer in your own words, as Dmitry Mikhailovich said, do you thank Christ for salvation? And how often does this occur in your prayers? Because I try every day.

Orthodox: For mercy. For mercy, for caring, but of course.

Baptist: No, mercy is secondary. Namely, if you are not sure of your salvation, then you do not ask for it.

Orthodox: So you are neglecting the grace of Christ?

Baptist: No, but mercy is also shown in every day, because I am healthy, because there is food on the table.

Orthodox: For calling me to church! What cares about my salvation! Of course!

Baptist: This is secondary. For taking care of the rescue itself. The most important mercy is Christ crucified. This is grace, salvation, given to us from the Cross. That is, I thank you in my prayers every day for the most important thing. "Lord, thank You for dying on the cross for me. I thank you for Your wounds, for Your atonement, for the holy blood shed, for being my Savior." And because of this, what Christ did is the foundation of my salvation. And now I'm building a foundation on it. But I do not deny that we are still being saved, that we will still be saved, as it is written in the Word of God. We already talked about this when we talked about salvation.

Orthodox (from the audience): Even the most important Sacrament in our Church is called the Eucharist. Thanksgiving.

Baptist: So it is not for the Eucharist that we should give thanks, but for the very work of Christ...

Orthodox (from the audience): This is how it (the Eucharist) is celebrated for the sake of all this.

Orthodox: Let me just quote a few words from a saint who doesn't quote Scripture, but who is generally close to you in his way of thinking. It's a saintDmitry Rostovsky. Here he has such a prayer – " Adoration of the Most Pure five plagues of Christ." It consists of ten small parts.

Baptist: No, I don't worship plagues.

Orthodox: You listen, please.

Baptist: Okay, I'm sorry.

Orthodox: And from these worships, I would like to read you just about the ulcers. He says: "We worship Your free suffering for us, O Lord, we kiss Your Most pure sores, we thank Your love and mercy so much that You laid Your soul on the cross for us. Grant us, O Lord, that we may love You with all our heart, with all our soul, with all our thought, with all our strength, and with all our mind. Our sweetest Jesus, we worship Your Most Pure, Most Holy and Life-giving ulcer, which is in Your right hand. And we beseech You, our Lord, for her sake to make us worthy to stand at Your right hand. We worship Your Most Pure, Most Holy, and Life-giving ulcer, which is in Your left hand. And we beseech Thee, our Lord, for her sake, deliver us from all our cruel sins and from the part of the left hand. We worship Your Most Pure, Most Holy, and Life-giving ulcer, which is in Your right foot. And we beseech You, our Lord, for her sake guide us to repentance" ... and so on...

Baptist: Well, here the worship is not Christ himself... but the worship of the plague-this is already bordering on idolatry...

Orthodox: In what way? These are the same passions of Christ, the same blood of Christ...

Baptist: Such believers, such lovers of the Lord, and why do they so quickly pass from Christ Himself to the plagues… If I worship the blood of Christ, I am already an idolater. I must not worship the blood, nor the plague, nor on the hand, nor on the foot, I must worship the living Christ Himself, Who is now on the throne, and give thanks for the sores on the right hand, on the right foot, and so on… To give thanks, but not to worship...

Orthodox: When we worship the plague of Christ, do we not worship the bearer of the plague… He also says: "My sweetest Jesus, we worship You..."

Baptist: The plague is not Christ Himself, it is a thing...

Orthodox: Can I clarify when your children were small, of course, you did not kiss them on the cheek, this is a small thing, but you just need to say-I love you, and that's enough...

Baptist: No… When I come to heaven and see Christ, I will kiss His wounds, the physical wounds in His body. I'll go over and kiss these wounds. But I won't kiss the image of those wounds right now.

Baptist (from the audience): Can I answer the question about the rescue… Here's a good example, but it's not quite correct. Why? Because the people of Israel, which the Apostle Paul uses as an example in the New Testament, are precisely the people who laid down their bones in the wilderness, and not the people who entered the promised land. I'll explain why. Because they all came out of Egypt, but Egypt didn't really come out of them. How many people entered the promised land? Two of them.

Orthodox (from the audience): No, two of the people who came out. But the Israelites who entered into the Covenant with God, they were quite numerous. These were already new people born in freedom...

Baptist: I don't argue, but here is an example that the Apostle Paul gives as an image, an example that sounds exactly about those people who entered. Two of them. "Not many," it says, " entered." The others all went to bed. And what reason does it indicate? They were murmurers, they were idolaters. It was people who grumbled and so on. You say they were sure of their salvation. They weren't sure of anything.

Baptist (from the audience): So they didn't believe Moses?

Baptist (from the audience): They murmured against Moses every day.

Orthodox (from the audience): Were they promised that they would enter? Was it promised to them by God?

Baptist (from the audience): What's the use?

Orthodox (from the audience): Exactly.

Orthodox (from the audience): It was promised from God...

Baptist (from the audience): Promised to all people. Here, listen, you listen to me first. Does the promise of salvation in Christ mean that all people are saved?

Orthodox (from the audience): That's what we're talking about...

Baptist (from the audience): This is universalism. That's not what we're talking about right now. We say that we have accepted it by faith. Here I once again pay attention to two people. These two people, how were they different from everyone else? They were also promised.

Orthodox (from the audience): By faith.

Baptist (from the audience): And when they saw the foreigners, what did they say? Yes, guys, what are you afraid of? After all, God promised we'd get in there. Their confidence was absolute. They didn't even have the slightest doubt. This is us, these are the saved people. And all the others, even if they are promised, even if God speaks to them, but if they don't believe it, they are not saved people! What is it about?

Orthodox (from the audience): I think, in principle, this is the same thing that we would like to convey.

Baptist (from the audience): That's how we talk about it. We don't disagree on that.

Orthodox: But they entered only after many years of hard work. Not as soon as you were told.

Baptist (from the audience): Who's arguing?

Baptist: We didn't plan our next meeting. If we are on your territory, then you have already suggested a topic. Will we approve it or choose another one? Eugene offered icon worship.

Orthodox: Because you are quite peaceful about icons today, of course. But I understand that just because you didn't have the claim that we are idolaters today doesn't mean that the last time you had it, it's all gone. So I think that so that you don't have any doubts that icons are not idols, and we are not idolaters, so that you perceive us as Christians who are the heirs of the apostles, and the apostles were not idolaters, I think this is an important topic.

Baptist: Will we be able to touch on the worship of not only icons, but also other holy things? Holy relics, the right hand of John the Baptist, the belt of the Most Holy Theotokos, and so on?

Orthodox: Let's. Then so: worship of material shrines. Material shrines are icons, relics, some objects, the belt of the Virgin, as it is said. If so, OK?

Baptist: Last time we said we agreed. That is, the inviting party suggests a topic, and we agree and consider it.

Orthodox: Good. Now this is the name.

Baptist: Fine. Brothers, don't you agree?

Baptist (from the audience): Expand your horizons.

Baptist: Probably, after all the holidays we will be able to meet. When do you have it there? Do you celebrate Christmas from 7 as well as Easter for 40 days? Or before Epiphany, until the 19th?

Orthodox: I think that in the process of communication you will be almost Orthodox. You will learn so much about us.

Baptist (from the audience): How long have you been hosting youth meetings? I just know that there didn't seem to be such a thing before, it just appeared recently.

Orthodox (from the audience): Well, they came and went.

Baptist (from the audience): Well, when approximately?

Orthodox (from the audience): Which one is it? What I know came out in 2009. Then it broke up, a new one appeared on his seed, it broke up, a new one appeared.

Baptist (from the audience): And then, I see, they start doing it as a membership card... Who constantly goes, you somehow then gather separately and preach...

Orthodox: We don't have the concept of "membership" anywhere near it.

Baptist (from the audience): Here is the churchon Zaprudna, what is it called? You don't talk to her?

Orthodox (from the audience): You talk as if Father Dmitry has only one place where young people...

Baptist (from the audience): No. I just know that before...

Orthodox (from the audience): I was a member of the parish, there are young people there (historically, maybe it happened that way, I don't know), but there was a list of young people there, because there is a summer camp there, and I can roughly see how many young people there are, how many people participate in the life of the parish. This is about 150 people aged from 3 years and already up to adulthood.

Baptist (from the audience): Are you going after the liturgy?

Orthodox: This is a Sunday school called… They have compulsory classes. Mandatory classes with kids.

Baptist (from the audience): No, I meant the adults, Father John is there, I think. I went to this office myself, and he preached like a sermon… I even went to concerts. Because I ask you a question, you say, " No, no, it's not ours." Although I say that I lived with the Orthodox, went to this church, and you say that we do not have such a thing.

Orthodox: No what?

Baptist (from the audience): You have taken more from us, from the Protestants...

Orthodox (from the audience): You appeared in the 19th century.

Baptist (from the audience): You, too, are now beginning to explain the Word to them as members who constantly go. We started holding youth events, just like in our country, and then you say, " Here, you will soon be like Orthodox Christians." Well, I see you're taking more from us.

Orthodox: This is Sunday school.

Baptist (from the audience): This is a Sunday school, it appeared in the ninth year. And Orthodoxy?

Baptist: For adults?

Orthodox: There are some for adults, some for children...

Baptist (from the audience): Well, it wasn't before, but we always have...

Orthodox (from the audience): No, I was referring to the ninth year, and I may have misunderstood your question. This is the unification of communities of all parishes. That's a different story. That is, this congregation generally includes parishioners of any churches.

Baptist: All of Kostroma.

Orthodox (from the audience): And even not only Kostroma, but also students who come (study, for example) to Kostroma, and go home for the weekend, that is, this meeting is outside the community. That is, people from all communities come there.

Orthodox (from the audience): And there are more in the communities.

Baptist: Is this where you lead?

Orthodox (from the audience): Well, different priests come there, I'm just one of the regular priests there.

Orthodox (from the audience): Interpretation of the Gospel, the Gospel is read...

Baptist: Is this not a service?

Orthodox (from the audience): No, it's not a service, it's a meeting.

Baptist: When can I come to you? Can I come and see it? Interestingly, we did not know what you have yet.

Orthodox (from the audience): You can come here.

Baptist: We won't be preaching there, we'll just sit and listen quietly.

Orthodox (from the audience): Good.

Baptist: Interesting.

Orthodox (from the audience): Only the Old Believers came to see us. We've already visited several times.

Orthodox: They suggested, yes, that I also run a Sunday school, but for adults, really. So we invite all interested parties.

Orthodox (from the audience): No, but Sunday schools have been around for a long time.

Orthodox (from the audience): They ask about adults...

Orthodox (from the audience): Well, for adults, yes. For adults and students. That is, there are different categories. I only meant the ninth year...

Baptist: It is not the service itself, but the liturgy, because it is shown everywhere on TV, in general, on the Internet. But how do you work with young people?

Orthodox (from the audience): Let me explain a little. The fact is that in the old days, for such a meeting, as we have already mentioned today, people were imprisoned or exiled for any such meeting. For example, Father Arkady serves in Buya, he even changed more than one area, because as soon as the authorities found out that he was gathering people to read and analyze the Word of God, the authorities simply kicked him out.

Baptist: This is the Soviet government. Soviet, indeed, yes.

Orthodox (from the audience): Therefore, the fact that it appears, for example, somewhere in the 90s, from the zero years, is not because the Orthodox sat-sat and were like, oh, let's do this. It was just that the external barrier, the external pressure, was removed, because the parishes were very closely watched by the Soviet authorities and tried in every possible way to suppress them.

Here, for example, the church has never been closed. Our parishioners are now 84-year-olds, 90-year-olds, those who were small children 2-4 years old. They spent their entire lives going to this temple. And they said that when they were very young, they hid under the skirts of their grandmothers and parents, because there was a police convoy and they simply did not let children into the temple. And then, when they were already big and it was impossible to hide, they just got dressed, smeared with something. It was, for example, Easter, especially in the dark. And they just wrapped themselves up like grandmothers to… And if the police found them, they simply drove them away. Therefore, the story is that now it is flourishing in Orthodoxy, it is simply connected with the cessation of external pressure. And so it is developing more and more.

Orthodox (from the audience): I will say, here I am in ' 92, when everything was just opening up, I found out, they officially said that there is a priest who conducts conversations on the Gospel with young people. And I did. As soon as it became possible, it happened right away.

Orthodox: Therefore, the story that it is forbidden to read the Gospel-this does not happen.